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Hall of Fame Class of 2009

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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby ukrneal » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:33 am

noseeum wrote:
ukrneal wrote:
noseeum wrote:
You're talking about a guy who kept playing in the independent leagues after he couldn't get a job at 45 years old.

I've never heard or read anyone saying he didn't try hard. He pissed a lot of people off for various reasons, but I've never once heard that.


Really? He's done it much of his career. Here is an article from when he was released by the Mets: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9669C8B63. There are many others.


OK you got me. But keep in mind this is Steve Phillips and Bobby V. Bobby V won't ever let a player up stage him. And Steve Phillips is Steve Phillips.

I think it was more the "second half" comment. How about "last fifth" instead of "second half"? :-D

You don't "not try" your way to that many stolen bases. That takes some work!

I'm sure you can find some reporter or Ted Simmons getting mad about his antics, hot dogging, etc., accusations of him not running out a ground ball and such to first, or watching a homer early in his career, but that's the curse of being a confident/arrogant take no prisoners great baseball player who speaks his mind and happens to be black.

Maybe that's changed, but it certainly hadn't in the 80s. See the love for Paul Molitor, former cokehead and hall of famer, and articles explaining why Tim Raines, former cokehead and non hall of famer, should not get in the hall because he slid head first in order to not break his coke vials. Total double standard.

I wouldn't call it blatant racism, but there's a stereotyping that goes along with Rickey, and clearly Raines with the coke stuff. During the 70s and 80s, when you hear a black player "doesn't respect the game", that always sounded a lot to me like "doesn't know his place."


It may have been closer to fifth than half (I was generalizing anyway), and I agree he did work hard in his career. Just sometimes, he would get all whiny. It's no worse than Manny I guess, and certainly not a reason to keep him from the HOF considering his contributions. It's really the only negative on him I can think of.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby Tavish » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:02 am

ukrneal wrote:Can't agree with you for a few reasons (and I am on the fence with Rice - I would not have voted for him personally):
1. Evans had one year with an average over .300. He was better at getting on base than Rice, but a good hitter should have more than one year where he hits over .300 (and barely at that). and he had several seasons under .250.


A good hitter is one that doesn't make outs. Evans was markedly better at not making outs compared to Rice.

2. He has no really outstanding trait. He was a good player, but he was not a base stealer, didn;t really hit huge numbers of HR, etc. His biggest asset was that he got a lot of walks.

And yet he hit more HRs, scored more runs, had more doubles and was roughly the same in RBIs, hits, and total bases over his career. Even taking the last 3 years off of Evans' career to put them on an even career length the difference in these numbers isn't much. Then you consider that Evans was a plus defensive player and Rice was below average and Evans gets a tremendous advantage.

3. His best year was a strike shortened year. This is always suspicious for a player without any other peak years. Maybe it is not entirely fair, but that is the way I see it.

Not sure why that means anything, but I would also consider 82, 84, and 87 to be very good years. All of them were as good if not better than Rice's best season.

Evans had a better and longer peak, was at the very worst slightly behind Rice with the bat, the far superior defensive player, and had a longer, more productive career. I would have no problem at all saying Evans was the better player and better candidate for the Hall.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby ukrneal » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:53 am

Tavish wrote:
ukrneal wrote:Can't agree with you for a few reasons (and I am on the fence with Rice - I would not have voted for him personally):
1. Evans had one year with an average over .300. He was better at getting on base than Rice, but a good hitter should have more than one year where he hits over .300 (and barely at that). and he had several seasons under .250.


A good hitter is one that doesn't make outs. Evans was markedly better at not making outs compared to Rice.


Err, no. Well, not exactly. If a batter has a .100 average and gets a walk 3 of every 10 at bats, he is not a good hitter. He just has a good eye for differentiating the strike zone. Such a batter is unlikely, but it is just to point out that you have to be a good hitter (getting the ball in play) to be a good hitter. Ted williams had both, but people talk about his ability to hit his strike zone when they talk about what a good hitter he was. They talk about his good eyes for the walks.

2. He has no really outstanding trait. He was a good player, but he was not a base stealer, didn;t really hit huge numbers of HR, etc. His biggest asset was that he got a lot of walks.
And yet he hit more HRs, scored more runs, had more doubles and was roughly the same in RBIs, hits, and total bases over his career. Even taking the last 3 years off of Evans' career to put them on an even career length the difference in these numbers isn't much. Then you consider that Evans was a plus defensive player and Rice was below average and Evans gets a tremendous advantage.


Ok. But if you take out Rice's last 2-3 years (which were not so steller), you get much better yearly numbers than Evans. Also, if you take Evans last 3-4 years out, his career totals are not really close to Rice's as you assert. But I don't think logetivity is an area that helps Rice all that much. I don't remember Evans being all that special on defense and they are separated by a handful of errors. Since neither was really an Ozzie Smith, I don't think this impacts them much.

3. His best year was a strike shortened year. This is always suspicious for a player without any other peak years. Maybe it is not entirely fair, but that is the way I see it.

Not sure why that means anything, but I would also consider 82, 84, and 87 to be very good years. All of them were as good if not better than Rice's best season.

Evans had a better and longer peak, was at the very worst slightly behind Rice with the bat, the far superior defensive player, and had a longer, more productive career. I would have no problem at all saying Evans was the better player and better candidate for the Hall.


Comparing peaks is difficult. Rice has a clear 3 year peak with some additional good years that follow. Evans has a group of years that could have been peaks, but are separated by some pretty average years. I thnk this hurts Evans even if it is all about perception. I cannot really find a clear peak for Evans. Perhaps that was his biggest weakness - he was too inconsistent.

So personally, I think both should be on the other side looking in. But they didn't give me a vote.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby Tavish » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:16 pm

ukrneal wrote:
Tavish wrote:
ukrneal wrote:Can't agree with you for a few reasons (and I am on the fence with Rice - I would not have voted for him personally):
1. Evans had one year with an average over .300. He was better at getting on base than Rice, but a good hitter should have more than one year where he hits over .300 (and barely at that). and he had several seasons under .250.


A good hitter is one that doesn't make outs. Evans was markedly better at not making outs compared to Rice.


Err, no. Well, not exactly. If a batter has a .100 average and gets a walk 3 of every 10 at bats, he is not a good hitter. He just has a good eye for differentiating the strike zone. Such a batter is unlikely, but it is just to point out that you have to be a good hitter (getting the ball in play) to be a good hitter. Ted williams had both, but people talk about his ability to hit his strike zone when they talk about what a good hitter he was. They talk about his good eyes for the walks.

Evans wasn't a .100 hitter. His .272 career batting average is better than some of the elite players in baseball history (Schimdt, Morgan, McCovey, Mathews, etc). You making it out to sound like Evans was Richie Sexson and Rice was Tony Gwynn. Their gap in BA isn't really all that big.

If you take each player's 162 game average what you end up with for Rice's better BA is Rice getting on base 4 more times and 30 total bases in a season at the cost of 75 outs. I'll take Evans as the better hitter, even moreso since Evans did this over a longer career.

I completely agree that neither one should be in the Hall of Fame. But the comparison was meant in the first place to show what a illogical selection Rice was. Rice is just another step in lowering the bar.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby HOOTIE » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:02 pm

People put too much stock in BA.

EQA (Equivalent Average), is a great way to measure hitting.

EQA

Raines .309
Evans .296
Rice .293

BRAA (Batting Runs Above Average)

Raines 607
Evans 445
Rice 350

FRAA (Fielding Runs Above Average)

Evans +46
Raines +22
Rice -68

As you can see, Raines blows Rice out of the water, and Evans does with glove. Evans gets a slight edge in hitting. Evans had one of the best RF arms ever.

Cepeda, Perez, Puckett, Rice were all bad selections. How Raines got only 22% is beyond me?
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