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Hall of Fame Class of 2009

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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby AquaMan2342 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:24 pm

I don't really follow the HOF stuff much, but can anybody seriously explain why Henderson received only 94% of the votes? Seems like complete BS.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby HOOTIE » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:43 pm

Can anyone explain why Rice gets so much love? Did he have a billionaire in his corner propping him? Dwight Evans was better, and on the same team. Evans got knocked off the ballot for failing to get 5 % to stay on. I really don't get it.

Evans beat Rice in

runs created
rc/g
batting runs
batting wins
defense
win shares

People in Rice corner claim 2 things. He was the most feared slugger in AL.
He was best slugger in AL for years.

Rice highest finish in IBB was 5th? Guys more feared. Carew, Spencer, Singleton. They lead the AL in IBB at least once.

Career IBB

Rice was 77
Evans 61
Parker 170

I know Parker was NL, but that's more of a fear argument then Rice.

Rice only had 3 years where he was top 5 in runs created.

I'm probably in the minority, but i wouldn't pay to get into the HOF. Not with Raines and McGwire, much better players, getting 20% votes. Santo and Dick Allen not in.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby AussieDodger » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:35 am

So what kind of player gets 100%? 8-o
I'm sure if there was a player that hit a home run every at-bat, one of the backward hick voters wouldn't like the colour of his shoes or something.

I know I've said this before but............


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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby ukrneal » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:45 am

AquaMan2342 wrote:I don't really follow the HOF stuff much, but can anybody seriously explain why Henderson received only 94% of the votes? Seems like complete BS.


I think that is an easy one - his attitude. I liked him his whole career, but he would sometimes not even try or get into a rut of maliase (more true in the second half of his career in particular). This always left a bad taste, which is part of why he was on so many teams. One of the reasons he couldn't get a job at the end of his career was for this very reason.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby ukrneal » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:05 am

HOOTIE wrote:Can anyone explain why Rice gets so much love? Did he have a billionaire in his corner propping him? Dwight Evans was better, and on the same team. Evans got knocked off the ballot for failing to get 5 % to stay on. I really don't get it.

Evans beat Rice in

runs created
rc/g
batting runs
batting wins
defense
win shares

People in Rice corner claim 2 things. He was the most feared slugger in AL.
He was best slugger in AL for years.

Rice highest finish in IBB was 5th? Guys more feared. Carew, Spencer, Singleton. They lead the AL in IBB at least once.

Career IBB

Rice was 77
Evans 61
Parker 170

I know Parker was NL, but that's more of a fear argument then Rice.

Rice only had 3 years where he was top 5 in runs created.

I'm probably in the minority, but i wouldn't pay to get into the HOF. Not with Raines and McGwire, much better players, getting 20% votes. Santo and Dick Allen not in.


Can't agree with you for a few reasons (and I am on the fence with Rice - I would not have voted for him personally):
1. Evans had one year with an average over .300. He was better at getting on base than Rice, but a good hitter should have more than one year where he hits over .300 (and barely at that). and he had several seasons under .250.
2. He has no really outstanding trait. He was a good player, but he was not a base stealer, didn;t really hit huge numbers of HR, etc. His biggest asset was that he got a lot of walks.
3. His best year was a strike shortened year. This is always suspicious for a player without any other peak years. Maybe it is not entirely fair, but that is the way I see it.
4. You are comparing to others who I think should not get in. I liked Raines (as a Mets fan I saw him often), but no way does he have the stats (even worse choice than Rice). Mac, well bad choice since we all know why he isn't getting in yet.

Rice has stats than look almost exactly like Capeda. If you disagree with that one, then you will diasgree with Rice too.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby SecretAgentMan » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:22 am

AquaMan2342 wrote:I don't really follow the HOF stuff much, but can anybody seriously explain why Henderson received only 94% of the votes? Seems like complete BS.



Because 6% of the writers are utter and complete imbeciles? In an era where they put in the Mazeroskis and Ozzie Smiths of this world with 660-ish OPSs and and career 260-ish avgs and 300-337 OBPs, some of them obviously figure that guys like Henderson do not make the grade. And please let's not get into the utter nonsense that is the fielding argument for the HOF. If good glove, no hit got people into the HOF, then what of Bert Campaneris, Mark Belanger, Paul Blair, etc?

The 6% who did not vote for Henderson should be stripped of their right to vote in the future on the grounds that they are too stupid to be allowed to make decisions for themselves.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby noseeum » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:19 am

ukrneal wrote:
AquaMan2342 wrote:I don't really follow the HOF stuff much, but can anybody seriously explain why Henderson received only 94% of the votes? Seems like complete BS.


I think that is an easy one - his attitude. I liked him his whole career, but he would sometimes not even try or get into a rut of maliase (more true in the second half of his career in particular). This always left a bad taste, which is part of why he was on so many teams. One of the reasons he couldn't get a job at the end of his career was for this very reason.


You're talking about a guy who kept playing in the independent leagues after he couldn't get a job at 45 years old.

I've never heard or read anyone saying he didn't try hard. He pissed a lot of people off for various reasons, but I've never once heard that.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby ukrneal » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:14 am

noseeum wrote:
ukrneal wrote:
AquaMan2342 wrote:I don't really follow the HOF stuff much, but can anybody seriously explain why Henderson received only 94% of the votes? Seems like complete BS.


I think that is an easy one - his attitude. I liked him his whole career, but he would sometimes not even try or get into a rut of maliase (more true in the second half of his career in particular). This always left a bad taste, which is part of why he was on so many teams. One of the reasons he couldn't get a job at the end of his career was for this very reason.


You're talking about a guy who kept playing in the independent leagues after he couldn't get a job at 45 years old.

I've never heard or read anyone saying he didn't try hard. He pissed a lot of people off for various reasons, but I've never once heard that.


Really? He's done it much of his career. Here is an article from when he was released by the Mets: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9669C8B63. There are many others.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby AussieDodger » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:40 am

ukrneal wrote:
Really? He's done it much of his career. Here is an article from when he was released by the Mets: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9669C8B63. There are many others.


Ummm......

General Manager Steve Phillips announced that the team had given Henderson, 41, a likely Hall of Famer, his unconditional release.

''At some point, when you continue to do the wrong thing and say the wrong thing, you continue to wear out your welcome,'' Phillips said. ''We were at the point where we were having to compromise our ideals too many times. When taking everything into account, the offense, defense and the alternatives we had, and what it does to the fabric of the team, we thought it was the right thing to do.''


/Head asplode :-o





Sounds like desperate men finding a scapegoat to me.
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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2009

Postby noseeum » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:43 am

ukrneal wrote:
noseeum wrote:
ukrneal wrote:
I think that is an easy one - his attitude. I liked him his whole career, but he would sometimes not even try or get into a rut of maliase (more true in the second half of his career in particular). This always left a bad taste, which is part of why he was on so many teams. One of the reasons he couldn't get a job at the end of his career was for this very reason.


You're talking about a guy who kept playing in the independent leagues after he couldn't get a job at 45 years old.

I've never heard or read anyone saying he didn't try hard. He pissed a lot of people off for various reasons, but I've never once heard that.


Really? He's done it much of his career. Here is an article from when he was released by the Mets: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9669C8B63. There are many others.


OK you got me. But keep in mind this is Steve Phillips and Bobby V. Bobby V won't ever let a player up stage him. And Steve Phillips is Steve Phillips.

I think it was more the "second half" comment. How about "last fifth" instead of "second half"? :-D

You don't "not try" your way to that many stolen bases. That takes some work!

I'm sure you can find some reporter or Ted Simmons getting mad about his antics, hot dogging, etc., accusations of him not running out a ground ball and such to first, or watching a homer early in his career, but that's the curse of being a confident/arrogant take no prisoners great baseball player who speaks his mind and happens to be black.

Maybe that's changed, but it certainly hadn't in the 80s. See the love for Paul Molitor, former cokehead and hall of famer, and articles explaining why Tim Raines, former cokehead and non hall of famer, should not get in the hall because he slid head first in order to not break his coke vials. Total double standard.

I wouldn't call it blatant racism, but there's a stereotyping that goes along with Rickey, and clearly Raines with the coke stuff. During the 70s and 80s, when you hear a black player "doesn't respect the game", that always sounded a lot to me like "doesn't know his place."
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