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Disgusting

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Re: Disgusting

Postby TheRock » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:31 am

jfg wrote:Letting the government decide to step in and help people is better than letting scumbags decide to pay only the minimum necessary. If people would just be decent human beings it wouldn't be necessary.


So anyone who isn't a socialist isn't decent human being.
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Re: Disgusting

Postby jlm53089 » Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:31 am

Decent human beings is something that there will never be when it comes to money.

Greed is the problem, and greed is something that wont go away.
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Re: Disgusting

Postby bigh0rt » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:59 am

jlm53089 wrote:Decent human beings is something that there will never be when it comes to money.

Greed is the problem, and greed is something that wont go away.

"Greed is good."
- G. Gecko
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Re: Disgusting

Postby Madison » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:25 pm

jfg wrote:Letting the government decide to step in and help people is better than letting scumbags decide to pay only the minimum necessary.


Doesn't make sense on a couple of levels.

#1. The government should not spend taxpayer's money to overpay workers and/or save a business from their poor business management.

#2. Paying the minimum necessary is all dependent on the people. If I offer $5 for someone to mow my yard and no one takes me up on the offer, then I have no choice but to offer more to get the job done. Same goes with any job. If Ford/GM/etc., offer minimum wage and no one takes the job(s), then they have to offer more money. Business owners offer an opportunity to earn money. If someone decides they cannot live on that amount of money, they are not forced to take the job. So your "scumbags" portion of that statement is quite off base and not from the world of reality.
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Re: Disgusting

Postby jfg » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:07 pm

But, when there aren't any other jobs out there I think it's pretty scummy to pay the minimum possible because they can. I think it is the governments job to make sure that first, jobs are available and second, that employers are paying fair rates. That's what the minimum wage is for and I think the minimum wage should be reevaluated every legislative session to keep up with rising costs because if employers aren't going to do it themselves, they need a swift kick in the butt to make it right. It's nice that the minimum wage will be more than 2 dollars more than it was in 2007 next year and has been raised for the past 3 years after not being raised for 10 years (!). It's sad that it has be made into law.
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Re: Disgusting

Postby TheRock » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Well, let's see how much you really believe what you're saying.

You could be doing your part, you know. The real problem here, that won't magically go away by giving money to the auto makers, is that they aren't making any money. Sales are down. WAY down. One statistic that went widely reported - Chrysler's sales for November fell 47% from last year. Problem's not going away unless people start buying cars. Think of all those people who will be out of work. So are you willing to buy a car you don't really want or need, at a price higher than you ought to be paying, knowing full well you could buy a better car cheaper elsewhere, all to help someone maintain the standard of living to which they've become accustomed? Because that's exactly what you're saying employers everywhere ought to be doing. I guess if you wouldn't, we'll have to assume you're a greedy indecent person.
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Re: Disgusting

Postby jfg » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:45 pm

Thing is, I didn't start a business, I'm just a bystander so I'm not morally obliged to buy a car. Anybody who starts a business should feel wrong paying their employees wages that aren't to the standards of what it costs to live. A business owner has a responsibility to the customers and the employees. A customer doesn't have any responsibility at all except for having the money to pay for their purchase.

Aspects of socialism would not be necessary if people would treat people with decency. Government is a necessity when it comes to this because people aren't ethical. We set rules and regulations on what you can't do to another human being because people are inherently evil and need a set of rules to abide by. Greed falls under that inherently evil category as well, and I see no reason why government shouldn't be involved in protecting it's citizens against it.
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Re: Disgusting

Postby RugbyD » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:49 pm

jfg wrote:Thing is, I didn't start a business, I'm just a bystander so I'm not morally obliged to buy a car. Anybody who starts a business should feel wrong paying their employees wages that aren't to the standards of what it costs to live. A business owner has a responsibility to the customers and the employees. A customer doesn't have any responsibility at all except for having the money to pay for their purchase.

Aspects of socialism would not be necessary if people would treat people with decency. Government is a necessity when it comes to this because people aren't ethical. We set rules and regulations on what you can't do to another human being because people are inherently evil and need a set of rules to abide by. Greed falls under that inherently evil category as well, and I see no reason why government shouldn't be involved in protecting it's citizens against it.

I agree. The Supreme Court needs to step in an protect the taxpayers from the unconstitutional use of TARP money (even by Robert Reich's standards) that will go to feed UAW greed.

I don't see people as inherently evil. I'm not of the opinion that everyone is out to screw me.

Labor gets paid at a discount to capital because labor doesn't take risk.

Just curiously, what should determine the cost to live? What's the minimum standard? What's an appropriate distance from work to live? What's the minimum allowable square footage of living space amongst a certain number of people? How should adults and non-adults be considered when determining living space minimum requirements that we would use to create this 'cost to live'? Minimum wage has to based on something concrete to be valid, otherwise we're just picking numbers out of the air. What sort of mandarin geniuses will figure out all of this for and and tell us what is a right amount and what is a wrong amount? When do right and wrong change? I am curious to know.
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Re: Disgusting

Postby jfg » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:12 am

There are plenty of numbers out there that show the cost of living for a person living modestly. A 40 hour a week minimum wage job should be able to cover rent, groceries, clothing, health care, utility bills and bus fare/car payment for one person.

I think one thing that would be an amazing change but will never happen is to have a percentage difference cap between the top paid employee and the lowest paid employee.
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Re: Disgusting

Postby jlm53089 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:29 am

Business owners are obligated to make their business the best possible and make the most money possible for their business.

I.E. Walmart.

Walmart people see as evil, I see them as some of the smartest business people in the world.

Sometimes you have to take people up on the fact that they need a job and will work for a certain price.

Walmart has set the standard for business and I dont think that will change unless sanctioned by the government and then you start to swing into a Socialist style and than ANARCHY.
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