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The last 40-40 man in the Majors was...

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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:26 am

Mays wouldn't draft Bonds today. Mays never walked like BB. Career OPS+

Bonds 179
Mays 156

Mays was the better fielder and runner, but not hitter.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:27 am

40/40 is a glamour stat, but in reality it's very overrated.
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Postby Rama-lama-ham-dam » Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:11 am

40-40 is meaningless. Guys didn't go for it until someone made a big deal out of Jose Canseco doing it.

I think it was Mickey Mantle who said he'd have done it if he'd KNOWN about it.
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Postby mikcou » Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:42 am

Sox FANatic001 wrote:and the first, and only to go 500/500...

barry bonds


and I believe the only one to go 400/400 too
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Postby Mookie4ever » Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:56 am

I don't know how anyone could say that 40/40 is a meaningless stat. I certainly shows speed and power. It doesn't mean that the guy can hit or field but it shows power and he isn't going to steal 40 if he get's caught 50% of the time.

As for great power/speed combos, don't forget Mookie Wilson in 1983 7 HR 54 SB. Let's see you steal 54 Dykstra - bhaahahaha
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Postby wkelly91 » Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:24 am

LBJackal wrote:
wkelly91 wrote:Close, but no cigar!

1956 Willie Mays 36-40
1957 Willie Mays 35-38
1970 Tommy Harper 31-38
1975 Mike Schmidt 38-29
1987 Eric Davis 37-50
1987 Juan Samuel 28-35
1995 Sammy Sosa 36-34

Willie Mays would dwarf Barry Bonds if he played in todays game. ;-D


You can't compare Mays and Bonds. Bonds is far and away the best player of his generation. How can you say somebody would be better than him? Even if Mays was the best player in his generation, that still puts him in the same class as Bonds. It's not like Mays was so much better than everybody else in baseball like Ruth was.

And 500/500 will NEVER be done again. Let alone 700/500 which Bonds will probably reach this season.


A few facts in Willie Mays defense:

1) Willie was a career .302 with a high of .347....he was no slouch hitter. In fact if he hadn't tried to hang on so long his average would have been higher.

2) Willie was no slouch in the walk department. He consistantly walked more than he struck out with a high of 112 total 1463.

3) Willie played in a dead ball era when you had homerun champions were routinely in the low to high 30's. Homeruns were MUCH harder to hit in the old ball parks with outfields ranging from 440-500 feet. Todays parks are built to enhance the homerun total for marketing purposes.

4) Willie played in an era when there were (16 teams) versus the (30 teams today). Thus there were much better quality pitchers and fielders on each team making it harder to get hits.

5) The stolen base was not utilized during this era either. In the years leading up to Mays stealing 40 in 1956, league leaders were often in the low 20's. In 1956 when Mays stole 40 the next closest J.Gilliam had 21.

6) Willie also played in an era when travel was more difficult and training isn't as advanced.

7) Willie started his career not long after the racial color line was crossed and surely put up with a lot of stress related to bigotry.

8) Lastly, I hesitate to mention this and start a firestorm but.....If it is found that Bonds has been using steroids he isn't playing on the same field as any player who hasn't and all records are suspect.

Also I omitted Soriano and Vlad because I figured most were aware of them. I was just trying to make some aware of others from the past who displayed speed and power. ;-)
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Postby TheRawDAWG » Sun Mar 07, 2004 12:46 pm

When it's shown Barry used steriods then his records should be wiped out. There's no room for cheaters in the record books.


And to all of you that don't want to believe Bonds took steriods: Come on open your eyes. You can say nothing has been proven but I think there is more than enough circumstantial evidence that proves Barry did it. We do not have to follow the same rules of the courts that protect the criminals. We are allowed to look at the facts and use common sense. And common sense in this case should leave you to believe Barry is a drug user.
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Postby thehotcorner » Sun Mar 07, 2004 1:32 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:I don't know how anyone could say that 40/40 is a meaningless stat. I certainly shows speed and power. It doesn't mean that the guy can hit or field but it shows power and he isn't going to steal 40 if he get's caught 50% of the time.


vlad in '02

39HR / 40SB and 20CS

Career: 123SB and 71CS. 63% success rate.

vlads got some wheels but i dont really consider him a great basestealer. if it wasn't for tryin to reach that oh so elusive 40/40 i'm sure he would normally never reach those stolen base totals.

my point being although i am a big fan of the 40/40 stat, i dont think makin outs 40% of the time on SB attempts was too good for the team during his quest for 40/40. The stat losing meaning to me when it's something you have TRY for.

Bonds was a 40/40 threat in ANY given year he played.
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Postby TheRawDAWG » Sun Mar 07, 2004 1:45 pm

thehotcorner wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:I don't know how anyone could say that 40/40 is a meaningless stat. I certainly shows speed and power. It doesn't mean that the guy can hit or field but it shows power and he isn't going to steal 40 if he get's caught 50% of the time.


vlad in '02

39HR / 40SB and 20CS

Career: 123SB and 71CS. 63% success rate.

vlads got some wheels but i dont really consider him a great basestealer. if it wasn't for tryin to reach that oh so elusive 40/40 i'm sure he would normally never reach those stolen base totals.

my point being although i am a big fan of the 40/40 stat, i dont think makin outs 40% of the time on SB attempts was too good for the team during his quest for 40/40. The stat losing meaning to me when it's something you have TRY for.

Bonds was a 40/40 threat in ANY given year he played.


Except the last 4-5. Now that he's so big from all the roids he can't run nearly as quick. And even if he could he wouldn't. He's all about the homerun and setting illegitimate records now. He wouldn't have even stole the 7 he did last year if he didn't need them to get to 500.
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Postby thehotcorner » Sun Mar 07, 2004 1:50 pm

i've heard enough about steroids the past few months. so lets not bring it up in every thread in the cafe. Bud has issued a gag rule you know, I for one will uphold it.
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