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Re: bail out failed

Postby chadlincoln » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:05 pm

I live in Detroit and personally I can't stand all the union/UAW crap. Once you're in the union, you can't get fired for not doing a good job. Where else in the world will you have that? On sports radio, I hear people call in complaining about the economy and how terrible it is in Michigan and how they have to sell their second Corvette. Now, not all people are like that and some people are really in need, but the sense I get from the area up here is that the auto workers think they deserve the incredibly high salary. Sorry, but a guy on an assembly line doesn't need to be making $60-$80 an hour. Chapter 11 is the best option. They need to restructure their contract with the UAW.

One a side note, William Clay Ford, owner of the Lions and former board member at Ford, will soon have an 0-16 team to go with his 0-16 car company.
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Re: bail out failed

Postby RugbyD » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:15 pm

chadlincoln wrote:I live in Detroit and personally I can't stand all the union/UAW crap. Once you're in the union, you can't get fired for not doing a good job. Where else in the world will you have that? On sports radio, I hear people call in complaining about the economy and how terrible it is in Michigan and how they have to sell their second Corvette. Now, not all people are like that and some people are really in need, but the sense I get from the area up here is that the auto workers think they deserve the incredibly high salary. Sorry, but a guy on an assembly line doesn't need to be making $60-$80 an hour. Chapter 11 is the best option. They need to restructure their contract with the UAW.

One a side note, William Clay Ford, owner of the Lions and former board member at Ford, will soon have an 0-16 team to go with his 0-16 car company.

actually Ford will come out 3-13, GM 1-15, and Chrysler 0-16. :-b
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Re: bail out failed

Postby bleach168 » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:34 pm

chadlincoln wrote: Sorry, but a guy on an assembly line doesn't need to be making $60-$80 an hour. Chapter 11 is the best option. They need to restructure their contract with the UAW.


Actually, hourly wages are around $43 which is pretty much industry standard. The $70 figure comes from factoring in all the retirees and their pensions/health care.
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Re: bail out failed

Postby Yoda » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:43 pm

bleach168 wrote:
chadlincoln wrote: Sorry, but a guy on an assembly line doesn't need to be making $60-$80 an hour. Chapter 11 is the best option. They need to restructure their contract with the UAW.


Actually, hourly wages are around $43 which is pretty much industry standard. The $70 figure comes from factoring in all the retirees and their pensions/health care.


$43 is still crazy high. That is probably what an average MBA graduate makes per hour.
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Re: bail out failed

Postby Pogotheostrich » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:51 pm

Yoda wrote:
bleach168 wrote:
chadlincoln wrote: Sorry, but a guy on an assembly line doesn't need to be making $60-$80 an hour. Chapter 11 is the best option. They need to restructure their contract with the UAW.


Actually, hourly wages are around $43 which is pretty much industry standard. The $70 figure comes from factoring in all the retirees and their pensions/health care.


$43 is still crazy high. That is probably what an average MBA graduate makes per hour.


That's almsot 90K a year for a job you can learn in less than a week. :-{
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Re: bail out failed

Postby AquaMan2342 » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:57 pm

Unions are destructive in the long term, plain and simple. Obama wants to make them stronger. Among his ideas (taken from his website):


Protect Striking Workers: Obama and Biden support the right of workers to bargain collectively and strike if necessary. They will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers, so workers can stand up for themselves without worrying about losing their livelihoods.


Granted it's just an idea, but given I believe they are as responsible for the auto crisis as the CEOs are, its unnerving to even fathom ideas like this becoming reality. What prevents a union from striking at anytime when they know they can't be permanently replaced?
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Re: bail out failed

Postby Dan Lambskin » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:55 pm

Madison wrote:
Dan Lambskin wrote:so by that rationale had the government not made the banks loan people more money than they could afford and make them live within their means, people could still afford to buy cars and instead of sales being down by 50% the Big 3 could keep on operating until 2010 when many of the cost cutting measure they have already begun to impliment begin to take effect. ;-)

unfortunately it looks like enough of congress and America share your point of view, so we may get to find out if the sky really is falling...or maybe they'll come to their senses and determine that the risk of loaning out $X Billion (where X=whatever the lasted number they've come up with is) to see if they can retool and become self sustaning outweighs the risk of a bankruptcy which will lead to total disaster


You're banking on people buying cars though (as are they), and that's where the problem is. If "X" company doesn't make cars people want to buy, then they won't make sales. Cars are not "must have" products in the sense that no one "has" to go out and buy a brand new vehicle. There are plenty of used vehicles out there of varying mileage. So in an industry where no one "has" to buy a company's products, they should be run with the financial backing in place should they fail.

Look at it in a smaller scale. I open a bar. I hire in 3 bartenders, 10 waitstaff, 2 bouncers, and a live band. No one "has" to come to my bar, but of course I hope they do. If I "have" to have sales that night to meet my payroll for the night, electric bill, and lease, then my business model stinks. I should have at the very least, a year's worth of expenses sitting in the bank before even entertaining the idea of opening a business to begin with. And of course, if things get dicey, then changes and cuts happen to extend the life of that bank account so I have longer to get the club running right before I go broke. If my club is successful, then once 5 years of expenses are sitting comfortably away, at that point I'm probably safe from any kind of downturn in business. That is a safe and secure business model, something the big 3 do not have, but should. It's why I oppose a bailout for them. In all their years of doing business, they never built themselves a reasonable safety net, and that's just downright terrible business management.

And that's not even taking into account that they aren't making cars that people want. If this was an industry wide problem where each and every single car manufacturer was having serious difficulty and facing bankruptcy, then maybe I could have a tiny shred of sympathy, but there are several car manufacturers doing ok or at least well enough to not be begging for taxpayer money to throw away.


my wife just had a baby on Sunday, so i'm pretty much done with this debate...i agree they screwed up by not planning for a 50% reduction in sales and that the UAW contracts are cripling these companies (along with excessive executive pay)

what i'm trying to stress is that by withholding a loan as punisment to the UAW and executives for bad decisions in the past is going to create more headaches than it's worth. float them a loan to keep operating for the next few months and then work on long term reorginization (however, i dont think bankruptcy is the best way to do so)

i also disagree with the point about them not making cars people want to buy but again dont have the time to dig up the information on that again

i do disagree about them not making cars people want though
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Re: bail out failed

Postby RugbyD » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:16 pm

Dan Lambskin wrote:my wife just had a baby on Sunday, so i'm pretty much done with this debate...i agree they screwed up by not planning for a 50% reduction in sales and that the UAW contracts are cripling these companies (along with excessive executive pay)

what i'm trying to stress is that by withholding a loan as punisment to the UAW and executives for bad decisions in the past is going to create more headaches than it's worth. float them a loan to keep operating for the next few months and then work on long term reorginization (however, i dont think bankruptcy is the best way to do so)

i also disagree with the point about them not making cars people want to buy but again dont have the time to dig up the information on that again

i do disagree about them not making cars people want though

Just a quick commentary - no need for response.

I disagree that BK is not the way to b/c I think the framework of Chp11 is the only one that forces all parties to take the necessary hits. Pre-pack or czar-led doesn't have that kind of legal framework and will be more subject to a political solution rather than an economic one.

I agree that the Big 3 are now making cars people want (still too many brands/models tho), but they can't expect to win back customers overnight. My past experience with Big 3 cars has created a credibility gap that the Germans and Japanese were happy to fill. I'll stick with those two until my reservations are mitigated.
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Re: bail out failed

Postby Madison » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:26 pm

Dan Lambskin wrote:my wife just had a baby on Sunday, so i'm pretty much done with this debate...i agree they screwed up by not planning for a 50% reduction in sales and that the UAW contracts are cripling these companies (along with excessive executive pay)

what i'm trying to stress is that by withholding a loan as punisment to the UAW and executives for bad decisions in the past is going to create more headaches than it's worth. float them a loan to keep operating for the next few months and then work on long term reorginization (however, i dont think bankruptcy is the best way to do so)

i also disagree with the point about them not making cars people want to buy but again dont have the time to dig up the information on that again

i do disagree about them not making cars people want though


I heard about the baby, glad everything went well and everyone's happy and healthy. ;-D

You just hit the nail on the head though in the second paragraph. "Punishment"? The only way not giving them a loan can be considered punishment is if you think they are "entitled" to a loan. Which certainly is not the case, they are not entitled to any taxpayer help in order to run their business. That's where our disagreement comes from. I believe businesses should survive on their own with zero help, especially not from tax dollars, and you disagree. That's cool, no worries, we can agree to disagree. ;-D

As to cars people want, honestly, it doesn't matter to me what any publication says. I'm a normal guy and I don't own 2 Tiburons because I love them or anything (don't misunderstand, I do like both of them and I am happy with both). I bought both because there was no competition. All the auto makers have to do is make a well-designed sportscar with actual body design (moldings, rear fin, ground effects, etc), twin tailpipes, wide wheels, sport suspension, and priced competitively to get me to give one a drive around the block with full intent of buying the car. None of them achieved that goal other than Hyundai did with the Tiburons, which is why I own two of them instead of two different makes/models of cars.
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Re: bail out failed

Postby Dan Lambskin » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:48 pm

Madison wrote:
Dan Lambskin wrote:my wife just had a baby on Sunday, so i'm pretty much done with this debate...i agree they screwed up by not planning for a 50% reduction in sales and that the UAW contracts are cripling these companies (along with excessive executive pay)

what i'm trying to stress is that by withholding a loan as punisment to the UAW and executives for bad decisions in the past is going to create more headaches than it's worth. float them a loan to keep operating for the next few months and then work on long term reorginization (however, i dont think bankruptcy is the best way to do so)

i also disagree with the point about them not making cars people want to buy but again dont have the time to dig up the information on that again

i do disagree about them not making cars people want though


I heard about the baby, glad everything went well and everyone's happy and healthy. ;-D

You just hit the nail on the head though in the second paragraph. "Punishment"? The only way not giving them a loan can be considered punishment is if you think they are "entitled" to a loan. Which certainly is not the case, they are not entitled to any taxpayer help in order to run their business. That's where our disagreement comes from. I believe businesses should survive on their own with zero help, especially not from tax dollars, and you disagree. That's cool, no worries, we can agree to disagree. ;-D

As to cars people want, honestly, it doesn't matter to me what any publication says. I'm a normal guy and I don't own 2 Tiburons because I love them or anything (don't misunderstand, I do like both of them and I am happy with both). I bought both because there was no competition. All the auto makers have to do is make a well-designed sportscar with actual body design (moldings, rear fin, ground effects, etc), twin tailpipes, wide wheels, sport suspension, and priced competitively to get me to give one a drive around the block with full intent of buying the car. None of them achieved that goal other than Hyundai did with the Tiburons, which is why I own two of them instead of two different makes/models of cars.


i guess i see the potential loss of 3 million jobs, most of who have no influence on how the companies have been run in the past as punishment to those people because of the mismanagement of a few...that's my main point

...and i cant fault anyone for buying the kind of car they like, i'd certainly consider a foreign car whenever i get around to buying my next car...just trying to say that the old "poor quality" or "nobody buys those cars" comments are becoming a fallacy

looks like Worst President Ever may decide to open up some of the $700B for the automakers though, so now he will go down as Worst President Ever But Not By As Wide A Margin in my book now

PS...i knew i'd get pulled back into this one :-b but i think i really am done now
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