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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:26 pm

Man, are you even reading my posts?
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BritSox » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:45 pm

FireJoeMorgan wrote:
Here are the five most boring things in the world, in order:

5. Slowed-down time-lapse photography of a small puddle of room-temperature water evaporating.
4. Two people you have never met, wearing identical colorless shirts and pants, talking about the dreams they had last night.
3. Debating what "Valuable" means w/r/t "Most Valuable Player."
2. Lying in a sensory deprivation tank and staring straight ahead at a blank wall while you listen to white noise.
1. Ann Coulter
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby Yoda » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:47 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:obviously Pujols helped the Cardinals to more wins than Manny did for LA because he had 4 extra months. if the Dodgers had not traded for Manny and stuck with what they had im willing to bet my last $ they dont make the playoffs. Mannys time in LA is what pushed them ahead of Arizona. the fact that LA seasonal win total is only 84 doesnt have to do with Manny. he wasnt there prior to the trade to have been any help to them during that time.
Mannys 1st game with LA was August 1st. he played 2 months with LA. during that time period the Dodgers were 30-24 including 17-8 in September. Manny and the huge numbers he put up were largely responsible for the Dodgers success. his value is what got them into the playoffs. the Cardinals during that same time period were 25-26.
were back to the word valuable. Manny was more valuable to the Dodgers in his 2 months than Pujols was to the Cardinals in his 6 months. the evidence is the fact that the Dodgers got into the playoffs and the Cardinals didnt.

ill say again, the Most Valuable Player is not an award for the best player. its which player was more valuable to his teams success, and it also has to do with that teams success in the playoff race. fair or not that just the way it has always been. there are plenty of examples in the past to support that such as 2006 with Justin Morneau. mentioned 2006 also brings up what happened in the NL. you could argue that season the award should have gone to Pujols, who was on a Cardinals team that made the playoffs, but the award instead went to Howard on the Phillies who finished 12 games behind the Mets. (allthough the Phillies were 2 games better than the Cardinals)
the award is VALUABLE. if it went to the BEST player it would be called something else like most outstanding.
im not saying Pujols isnt deserving, im saying i feel Howard or even Ramirez are a little more deserving.


Going by your method, the award should be MVPTHTS (Most Valuable Player To His Team's Success).
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby HOOTIE » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:55 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:Ryan Howard is the cleanup hitter for the Phillies. what is his job? his job is to hit HR and drive in runs. he did that better than anyone else in baseball.


The job of every hitter, regardless of spot in lineup, is to create runs. Here are the NL runs created leaders. You do know rbis are team dependent stats. Unless the hitter hrs, he has no control on amount of rbi chances.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/bat ... ll&minpa=0

Howard was 13th at 111runs created. Pujols was 1st at 147. Now i won't argue a difference of 5 runs created, but i will argue a difference of 36 runs created.

Have you compared Howard in relation to NL hitters in the following?

OPS
RC/27
Batting Runs
Batting Wins
Win Shares
Vorp

No matter which one you check, you won't find Howard in the top 5 of any of them. Is that a MVP? A guy who can't crack the top 5 of virtually any stat.
I know he was the hr leader. What did he do the other abs he didn't homer. You ignore outs made, which is a critical stat. You only get 3 a inning, 27 a game.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby HOOTIE » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:00 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:Howard is the best hitter on the Phillies team. the 2nd best hitter would be Ultley. Ludwick the 2nd best hitter on St.Louis has better stats than Utley.


Not this year he wasn't. Utley was.

125 runs created to 111. Utley also had the higher OPS and rc/27.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

HOOTIE wrote:
SpecialFNK wrote:Howard is the best hitter on the Phillies team. the 2nd best hitter would be Ultley. Ludwick the 2nd best hitter on St.Louis has better stats than Utley.


Not this year he wasn't. Utley was.

125 runs created to 111. Utley also had the higher OPS and rc/27.


HOOTIE, do you know much about the different variations of RC? ESPN seems to have one set of stats, Baseball Reference another and The Hardball Times another. Bloody Sox said THT claims to use the most complex...any insight on this?
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby HOOTIE » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:05 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:heres the rest.
runners on
Howard..
92 H, 83 R, 17 D, 3 T, 26 HR, 124 RBI
Pujols..
85 H, 80 R, 17 D, 0 T, 17 HR, 96 RBI
RISP
Howard..
56 H, 61 R, 11 D, 0 T, 12 HR, 90 RBI
Pujols..
39 H, 70 R, 12 D, 0 T, 9 HR, 75 RBI
RISP w 2 outs
Howard..
44 H, 40 R, 5 D, 0 T, 5 HR, 35 RBI
Pujols..
14 H, 36 R, 5 D, 0 T, 5 HR, 24 RBI


In any debate, those numbers don't do alot for me. Not picking on you, but it's basically cherry picking stats, and they are a small sample size as well.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby HOOTIE » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:09 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:how a team finishes does have to be considered. thats why its the MVP as in valuable.


That's YOUR criteria. The official criteria for MVP says nothing about amount of wins, standings, or playoffs. If it did, Ripken, Dawson, Arod could never have won.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby SpecialFNK » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:13 pm

where does it say a hitters job is to create runs?
Howards job is to DRIVE IN runs. he doesnt get paid to simply get on base, he gets paid to drive in the runners. thats why he is the cleanup hitter. when he comes up with runners on i doubt he is trying to get himself on base. he wants to get them runners home, and he did that better than anyone else in baseball.
Howard has weak numbers with noone on base. im thinking one reason for this is because he wasnt concerned with getting on base, but instead he was trying to drive himself in with a HR, which is why in 311 AB with noone on base he had 111 K, but 22 HR.
look at all the previous winners of the MVP award. its not just given to the best player. how a team does has an effect on who wins the award. if the award simply went to the best player there wouldnt be any voting needed, it would be an easy answer as to who would win the MVP each season. you could also have players simply worrying about their own stats instead of the teams success.
how often does the award go to a player on a non playoff team? not very often
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby HOOTIE » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:24 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:HOOTIE, do you know much about the different variations of RC? ESPN seems to have one set of stats, Baseball Reference another and The Hardball Times another. Bloody Sox said THT claims to use the most complex...any insight on this?


I personally am happy with the simple version, which has about a 95% accuracy rate. This means if you use this formula on each teams players, you will average 95% of actual runs scored that year. Even using the different formulas, which include sb,gidp, etc, it doesn't change the runs created very much.

Baseball-reference uses the simple one, (H+BB) * (TB) / (AB+BB).

ESPN sortable stats formula goes farther with gidp, sb, etc. I use theirs as well.

I have no idea what formula The Hardball Times uses.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about ... y.shtml#RC

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/stor ... s/glossary
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