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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:46 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:the MVP award is not an award for the player with the best statistical season. if it was there would be no need for voting, they would simply tally up who had the best statistical season and award the MVP accordingly.. but it doesnt work that way. its not just an award based on the best stats.


So then you concede that Pujols was better than Howard?
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby SpecialFNK » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:01 pm

i dont think ive ever said that Pujols seasonal stat line wasnt better than Howards. theres no argument that .357/.462/.653/1.114/ is better than .251/.339/.543/.881/, its right there in black and white. if the award was given to the best stat line then Chipper Jones would be in the conversation, but hes not.
you have to take everything into account, including how well the team does fair or not.
not very often does the MVP go to a player on a non playoff team. if it was totally open then other players this season would also be considered like Lance Berkman, David Wright, Hanley Ramirez, and others
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:09 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:i dont think ive ever said that Pujols seasonal stat line wasnt better than Howards. theres no argument that .357/.462/.653/1.114/ is better than .251/.339/.543/.881/, its right there in black and white. if the award was given to the best stat line then Chipper Jones would be in the conversation, but hes not.


Then I'm not sure why you kept bringing statistics into this conversation. Pujols beat Howard handily in every sound measurement. The only reason Chipper Jones isn't in the conversation is because he only played 128 games. If he kept up his production for the entire season then he would be in the conversation.

you have to take everything into account, including how well the team does fair or not.


No, I don't. I don't think team success has anything to do with who the Most Valuable Player is. So I do not take it into account.

not very often does the MVP go to a player on a non playoff team. if it was totally open then other players this season would also be considered like Lance Berkman, David Wright, Hanley Ramirez, and others


All of those guys are very much in the conversation for me. I'd vote each of those guys over Howard without blinking. Just because the voters consider team success doesn't mean they're right. By no stretch of the imagination is Ryan Howard the most valuable player in the NL. He's not even the most valuable player on his own team. There are numerous players around the league who provided more value to their respective teams.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby SpecialFNK » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:22 pm

how a team finishes does have to be considered. thats why its the MVP as in valuable. if it was who was the best player it would be the most outstanding player and all players in the entire league would be in consideration. when it comes time for magazines and newspapers to name the best players in the leauge i expect Pujols to be named, but i dont think he is as deserving as Howard for the NL MVP

i still think its unfortunate that Manny Ramirez cant be considered. he had the best stat line and he was a large reason why the Dodgers made the playoffs- .396 AVG/ .489 OBP/ .743 SLG/ 1.232 OPS/
he was more valuable to the Dodgers than any other offensive player in baseball was to their team success.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:29 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:how a team finishes does have to be considered. thats why its the MVP as in valuable. if it was who was the best player it would be the most outstanding player and all players in the entire league would be in consideration. when it comes time for magazines and newspapers to name the best players in the leauge i expect Pujols to be named, but i dont think he is as deserving as Howard for the NL MVP

i still think its unfortunate that Manny Ramirez cant be considered. he had the best stat line and he was a large reason why the Dodgers made the playoffs- .396 AVG/ .489 OBP/ .743 SLG/ 1.232 OPS/
he was more valuable to the Dodgers than any other offensive player in baseball was to their team success.


The guy who produces the most IS the most valuable. Is it Pujols' fault that his team wasn't that good? You're essentially giving the award to Howard because he was fortunate enough to have Utley, Rollins, Burrell, Hamels, Victorino, etc. on his team, and penalizing Pujols because he had less help. That's unfair. Put Pujols on Philadelphia and they would've done much better than they did. Take Pujols off St. Louis and they would've been far worse off. If you're the best player in the league, you're the most valuable. They go hand in hand. To suggest otherwise makes no sense.

And Manny played 2 months with the Dodgers. To suggest that he his 2 months helped the Dodgers more than 6 months of Pujols helped St. Louis is crazy.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby SpecialFNK » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:53 pm

again were back to supporting cast. why is it that the other Phillies get credit, but theres no credit to the other Cardinals hitters? did Ludwicks numbers do nothing in helping St.louis win?
im not sure exactly how to word this, but wheather its fair or unfair, for the MVP it has always meant more for players on playoff teams than non playoff teams. thats why it almost always goes to a player on a playoff team.

there is evidence to suggest that Ramirez 2 months in LA did help more than Pujols 6 months in St.Louis. St.louis didnt make the playoffs. where were the Dodgers when they acquired Ramirez? not in 1st, and the Dodgers didnt have much of an offence this season before Manny arrived. Manny in LA made the difference in them passing the DBacks.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:34 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:again were back to supporting cast. why is it that the other Phillies get credit, but theres no credit to the other Cardinals hitters? did Ludwicks numbers do nothing in helping St.louis win?


Obviously St. Louis had other players that contributed to the Cardinals' 86 wins. But they weren't as good as Philadelphia's. That's why Philly won 90+ games and are in the playoffs. I showed you that Philly scored 80+ more runs than St. Louis this year. I showed you the comparison between players like Utley/Rollins/Burrell and Ludwick/Glaus/Ankiel.

The mere fact that we're talking about supporting cast AT ALL is ridiculous. Supporting cast should have no influence on who the MVP is. Howard had a better supporting cast than Pujols, got into the playoffs, and thus is the MVP? This is your argument. I couldn't disagree more. Taking each player and removing outside elements, Pujols is far and away the better player. Pujols is the best player in baseball. Pujols is the MVP.

im not sure exactly how to word this, but wheather its fair or unfair, for the MVP it has always meant more for players on playoff teams than non playoff teams. thats why it almost always goes to a player on a playoff team.


We all know this. I'm not debating whether or not the system is like this. I'm arguing that the system SHOULDN'T be like this.

there is evidence to suggest that Ramirez 2 months in LA did help more than Pujols 6 months in St.Louis. St.louis didnt make the playoffs. where were the Dodgers when they acquired Ramirez? not in 1st, and the Dodgers didnt have much of an offence this season before Manny arrived. Manny in LA made the difference in them passing the DBacks.


Manny's 2 months were more valuable than Pujols' 6 months because LA made the playoffs? Really? If that's the argument you're attempting to make, we better cut it off right here. The fact that the Dodgers wouldn't have been in first without Ramirez is irrelevant. The Dodgers record is irrelevant. Playoff births are irrelevant. Even if you wanted to make the case that they were relevant...St. Louis won more games than the Dodgers. The Dodgers made the playoffs on a technicality. Beyond that, though, even if the Cardinals finished in last place, Pujols contributed MANY more wins to St. Louis than Ramirez could have possibly hoped to do in 2 months in LA.

:-°
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby J35J » Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:43 pm

How is the best player in the leauge not the most valuable? :-?
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:52 pm

J35J wrote:How is the best player in the leauge not the most valuable? :-?


Good question.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby SpecialFNK » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:23 pm

obviously Pujols helped the Cardinals to more wins than Manny did for LA because he had 4 extra months. if the Dodgers had not traded for Manny and stuck with what they had im willing to bet my last $ they dont make the playoffs. Mannys time in LA is what pushed them ahead of Arizona. the fact that LA seasonal win total is only 84 doesnt have to do with Manny. he wasnt there prior to the trade to have been any help to them during that time.
Mannys 1st game with LA was August 1st. he played 2 months with LA. during that time period the Dodgers were 30-24 including 17-8 in September. Manny and the huge numbers he put up were largely responsible for the Dodgers success. his value is what got them into the playoffs. the Cardinals during that same time period were 25-26.
were back to the word valuable. Manny was more valuable to the Dodgers in his 2 months than Pujols was to the Cardinals in his 6 months. the evidence is the fact that the Dodgers got into the playoffs and the Cardinals didnt.

ill say again, the Most Valuable Player is not an award for the best player. its which player was more valuable to his teams success, and it also has to do with that teams success in the playoff race. fair or not that just the way it has always been. there are plenty of examples in the past to support that such as 2006 with Justin Morneau. mentioned 2006 also brings up what happened in the NL. you could argue that season the award should have gone to Pujols, who was on a Cardinals team that made the playoffs, but the award instead went to Howard on the Phillies who finished 12 games behind the Mets. (allthough the Phillies were 2 games better than the Cardinals)
the award is VALUABLE. if it went to the BEST player it would be called something else like most outstanding.
im not saying Pujols isnt deserving, im saying i feel Howard or even Ramirez are a little more deserving.
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