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Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby AussieDodger » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:26 am

I'm sick of hearing about the MVP and Cy Young all together.

It is picked by a gaggle of monkeys with blindfolds on throwing darts.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby SpecialFNK » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:44 am

how do you define who was the best player? it depends what stats your looking at.
Pujols was 2nd in AVG at .357
he was 2nd in OBP at .462
he was 1st in SLG at .653
he was 1st in OPS at 1.114
if your simply using those stats then maybe Chipper Jones has an argument for MVP? Jones was 1st in AVG (.364), 1st in OBP (.470), 3rd in SLG (.574), and 2nd in OPS (1.044)

any argument for Pujols can also be made for others such as Howard, Delgado, Wright, Berkman, Utley, Gonzalez, Beltran, and even Pujols teammate Ludwick.

they say one way to determine the MVP is take that player off that team and how would they do. by that defenition CC Sabathia is the MVP. take him out of Milwaukee and theres no way they make the playoffs.
some will say oh buy he didnt play an entire season in that league. so? where does it say a player has to play an entire season to be considered for the award? its the NL MVP, did Sabathia not play in the NL??

im not saying Pujols wouldnt be a good choice, i just dont think he is the MOST valuable.
i doublt it goes to Sabathia because voters wont want to vote for him, but im still saying it should go to Howard, who was 1st in both HR at 48 (+8) and RBI at 146 (+22) along with 105 R.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:01 am

RBI and R are team dependent stats, and citing his HR as a reason is redundant because those are represented in OPS, which Pujols beats him in. Pujols also beats him handily in most SABR stats, which are, IMO, the best tools for judging performance. There is no way Howard was even close to Pujols' production this year.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby Dan Lambskin » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:19 am

i've always looked at the MVP as "if you took that player off the team, where would they be" but it's pretty much become "who has the best numbers". IMO Manny does deserved some consideration since i dont think LA makes the playoffs without him
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby Tavish » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:40 am

Dan Lambskin wrote:i've always looked at the MVP as "if you took that player off the team, where would they be" but it's pretty much become "who has the best numbers". IMO Manny does deserved some consideration since i dont think LA makes the playoffs without him


I don't think LA would be in the playoffs without him either, but that doesn't mean much to me. If you look strictly at what the players added to their team, the Cardinals would have won far fewer games without Pujols than the Dodgers would have won without Manny. The Astros would have won far fewer games without Berkman, and on and on. Manny isn't even in my top 20.

That's not to say that Manny hasn't been epic for the Dodgers this year, but he only played 1/3 a season for the team. The Dodgers were a .500 team and in the thick of the playoff race before they got him.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby bigh0rt » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:55 am

Tavish wrote:
Dan Lambskin wrote:i've always looked at the MVP as "if you took that player off the team, where would they be" but it's pretty much become "who has the best numbers". IMO Manny does deserved some consideration since i dont think LA makes the playoffs without him


I don't think LA would be in the playoffs without him either, but that doesn't mean much to me. If you look strictly at what the players added to their team, the Cardinals would have won far fewer games without Pujols than the Dodgers would have won without Manny. The Astros would have won far fewer games without Berkman, and on and on. Manny isn't even in my top 20.

That's not to say that Manny hasn't been epic for the Dodgers this year, but he only played 1/3 a season for the team. The Dodgers were a .500 team and in the thick of the playoff race before they got him.

This is precisely where I'm at, as well. It's the game differential that the player contributed. You can't count against a guy, the fact that the rest of his team can't hit or pitch, etc. It's not Lance Berkman's (for example) fault that the Astros aren't any good, and he shouldn't be penalized because if he performed precisely the way he did, and the rest of his team didn't suck so bad, they could be a playoff team, which would change peoples' opinions, despite a zero differential in his particular performance.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby Mr. T » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:59 pm

If you took Pujuls out of the Cardinals Line up and replaced him with Howard, or Delgado the Cardinals would not have been in the playoff race at all. Howard may have had his homeruns, but his RBI, and runs would be way down. Pujuls kept the Cardinals in the playoff race almost the whole season with his bat and glove. Take him off the team and where are the Cardinals? Has there ever been an MVP with a .250BA ? Howard and Delgado both had a lot of help on there team.You can argue that they may not even be the best player on there team let alone the league. Pujuls had a different line up everynight, and still made it look like he was hitting a slowpitch softball all season. He also only made 5 errors
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby SpecialFNK » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:24 pm

there are alot of people (MVP voters included) that dont really know what MVP even means.
its not an award for the best statistical season. its not who was the best player, the award is Most Valuable Player.
the Phillies might have other players who could have contributed. Howard might have had a weak AVG through the season, but when the games counted in September he was a large reason why the Phillies pushed past the Mets to make the playoffs. that will stick into the voters head and get him alot of votes.

Pujols had a great statistical season, but hes not the most valuable.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:29 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:there are alot of people (MVP voters included) that dont really know what MVP even means.
its not an award for the best statistical season. its not who was the best player, the award is Most Valuable Player.
the Phillies might have other players who could have contributed. Howard might have had a weak AVG through the season, but when the games counted in September he was a large reason why the Phillies pushed past the Mets to make the playoffs. that will stick into the voters head and get him alot of votes.

Pujols had a great statistical season, but hes not the most valuable.


Maybe that's what MVP means to you, but everyone has their own interpretation of it.

And since when do the games only count in September? The last I checked, a win in April means the same thing as a win in late September. Maybe if Howard was as consistently good as he was in September, Philly would have had the division wrapped up long ago. And the Cardinals would have been a lot worse off without Pujols than the Phillies would have been without Howard. So how is Howard more valuable than Pujols?
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby SpecialFNK » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:42 pm

a win in April is worth the same as a win in September in the standings, but there are differences.
theres more pressure to win in September. thats why you see certain things happen, like a manager getting fired in September on a playoff chasing team (Milwaukee), a pitcher starting 3 times on 3 days rest (Sabathia). i doubt any pitcher is going to pitch on 3 days rest in April to help a team win.
so i would think a player coming up big in September on a playoff team is going to mean more than any other month of the season.
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