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Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby Big Pimpin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:01 pm

HOOTIE wrote:Manny will get a few votes, but i see the writers making it a 2 horse race with Pujols/Howard.

The thing i will never understand, is those in Mannys corner? He played 53 games. That means he did not play in 109 Dodger games. A everyday player misses 109 games, and he's MVP? He better bat 1.000 then, and pitch.


Silly Hootie, using batting average to value players... ;-7

;-) :-D
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby SpecialFNK » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:26 pm

im not going to take the time to break down all the stats for the Dodgers before and after Manny.
one thing would be interesting to know. im not going to take the time to do it but maybe there is a website out there allready that has done it.. but how often does the MVP award go to a player on a playoff team compared to a non playoff team.
i dont feel the MVP award is just for the best player with the best stats. i think you have to factor in how their team did. the whole object of the game is to win ball games and get your team into the playoffs.

i found an interesting article with quote from Pujols.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2680495
Pujols said this..
"I see it this way: Someone who doesn't take his team to the playoffs doesn't deserve to win the MVP," Pujols said in Spanish at a news conference organized by the Dominican Republic's sports ministry.

maybe someone should bring that up to him now and see how he feels.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby The Artful Dodger » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:45 am

Manny deserves to be in the MVP talks as much as CC should for the Cy, but there's no way Manny should win the MVP. Manny has made the Dodgers a better team and his numbers have been impressive since jumping over, no doubt, but keep in mind that Joe Torre mis-managed the team for the first half especially in getting the OF situation totally wrong (i.e. Pierre's atrocious OBP, obviously the Andruw fiasco) as well as the multiple lineup changes. Manny essentially walked his time in Boston anyway.

If it makes you feel better, Manny has gone on record saying all things being equal and team success much less of a factor, Pujols should be MVP. Seems to me Manny even understands win shares. Is there nothing that man can't do?
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:03 am

The Artful Dodger wrote:Manny deserves to be in the MVP talks as much as CC should for the Cy,


I don't argue that. I don't think C.C. deserves to be in Cy talks either. ;-)
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby HOOTIE » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:13 am

BP, thanks for keeping me in line buddy. :-b
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby J35J » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:17 am

HOOTIE wrote:
J35J wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:Ryan Howard is in no way, shape or form, even in the top 10 of the NL's most valuable players.


I wouldn't go that far. As caveman(ish) as the HR and RBI is in evaluating players I'd still take the guy who leads the league in homeruns AND rbis over the majority of other guys regardless of the lineup, homepark or whatever other factors you want to throw out there. Is he better than Pujols, no, i'm just sayin.


...carry on with this stupid debate... :-)


Howard, Delgado, Manny, CC didn't make my top 10. Howard probably makes my 12th spot.

No order, but these 11 did more for their team imo,

Pujols/Wright/Utley/Chipper/Reyes/Ludwick/Braun/Berkman/HRamirez/Beltran/Holliday.

Curious to why you think the debate is stupid? Everybody debates the awards. It's kind of fun.

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LA record before and after Manny do little for me. Too many variables play into it.
What was the Dodgers era before and after?
What was the health of team before and after?
Strength of opponent before and after?
Strength of pitchers faced before and after? Example, did they face Webb/Lincecum/CC more before or after?
The biggest reason imo, was LA benched slugs like Pierre and AJones, and played Kemp/Ethier everyday.


Howards would finish in the 7-9 area for me. I think the debate is silly because it appears 99% of the people here think Pujols should win it....where's the debate?
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:35 pm

HOOTIE wrote:BP, thanks for keeping me in line buddy. :-b


Couldn't resist. :-D

Here is an interesting take on Pujols. ;-D
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby tah161 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:58 am

SpecialFNK wrote:how do you define who was the best player? it depends what stats your looking at.
Pujols was 2nd in AVG at .357
he was 2nd in OBP at .462
he was 1st in SLG at .653
he was 1st in OPS at 1.114
if your simply using those stats then maybe Chipper Jones has an argument for MVP? Jones was 1st in AVG (.364), 1st in OBP (.470), 3rd in SLG (.574), and 2nd in OPS (1.044)

any argument for Pujols can also be made for others such as Howard, Delgado, Wright, Berkman, Utley, Gonzalez, Beltran, and even Pujols teammate Ludwick.

they say one way to determine the MVP is take that player off that team and how would they do. by that defenition CC Sabathia is the MVP. take him out of Milwaukee and theres no way they make the playoffs.
some will say oh buy he didnt play an entire season in that league. so? where does it say a player has to play an entire season to be considered for the award? its the NL MVP, did Sabathia not play in the NL??

im not saying Pujols wouldnt be a good choice, i just dont think he is the MOST valuable.
i doublt it goes to Sabathia because voters wont want to vote for him, but im still saying it should go to Howard, who was 1st in both HR at 48 (+8) and RBI at 146 (+22) along with 105 R.


Same could be said for Manny...

It will be a very intresting season to see where Manny signs this off season. If he signs with the Dodgers or another NL team, I wonder what his numbers would be for an entire season.
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