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Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:23 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:
so if a player plays in a weaker division should their stats be looked at with less value?


Dude, are you even reading the posts?

Division strength, win totals and playoff births should not be considered AT ALL.


Where is the 'banging your head against a wall' emoticon? :-[
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby Neato Torpedo » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:55 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:im not saying Howard should or should not have been trying to hit a HR, im saying based on the stats thats probually what he was doing.

so if a player plays in a weaker division should their stats be looked at with less value? maybe thats why Pujols lost the MVP award in 2006 because the Cardinals were only 83-78.
the Dodgers overall this season were 84-78, ive allready posted what their record was WITH Manny and thats 30-24. if you do the math that means before Manny the Dodgers were 54-54, a .500 team.
and again were back to what the award IS. the big "V" in Valuable, its the most VALUABLE player. it is NOT given to the best player nor the player with the best stats. its given to the player who was the most VALUABLE. Mannys value to the Dodgers in his 2 months was worth more than Pujols value to the Cardinals over his 6 months. its not about comparing their seasonal stats.
Pujols and the other hitters on St.Louis on a full season couldnt get the Cardinals into the playoffs. because of Manny the Dodgers were able to go from a .500 team into a playoff team. weak division or not the Dodgers were only 2 games less than St.Louis at 86-76.
without Manny the Dodgers would not be in the playoffs.. and again the teams success fair or not has an effect on the award.

How do you know how many games the Cards would've won if Pujols wasn't playing? :-? Using your math.......when Pujols was out with the injury this year, the Cards were 6-8, which projects to a 69-93 record. Pujols got the Cards 17 more wins and Manny only gave the Dodgers 6. :-? :-? :-? :-?
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby SpecialFNK » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:31 pm

Division strength, win totals and playoff births should not be considered AT ALL.




wheather they SHOULD be or not doesnt matter, they always have been. how a team does and wheather or not that team gets into playoffs always has been taken into consideration when voting for the MVP. thats why the award is what is it. thats why there is a voting process. if it was who had the best statistical season it would be an easier choice.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:57 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:
Division strength, win totals and playoff births should not be considered AT ALL.




wheather they SHOULD be or not doesnt matter, they always have been. how a team does and wheather or not that team gets into playoffs always has been taken into consideration when voting for the MVP. thats why the award is what is it. thats why there is a voting process. if it was who had the best statistical season it would be an easier choice.


ONCE AGAIN

I know how the system is. I think the system is BS. Whether or not your team made the playoffs has NO relevance in how valuable a player is. I'm not sure how many more ways I can say this.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby SpecialFNK » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:46 pm

its not a matter of wheather you like it or not. its the way it is. there are lots of things i dont like. i dont like that the Yankees can go out and spend as much money as they want to try and buy a championship, but baseball isnt doing anything about it. i think thats flawed and there should be some type of salary cap, but i doubt its going to happen anytime soon.
there are some voters who vote on the MVP as who was the best player statistically regardless of how their team did, but then there are also voters who vote based on value and not only the stats said player put up but what effect they had on their teams success.
one way they determine who to vote for for MVP is taking that player off that team how would they do. if you take both Pujols off the Cardinals and Manny off the Dodgers ill bet my last dollar the Cardinals would be a better team without Pujols than the Dodgers would be without Manny. the Cardinals have better supporting cast than the Dodgers including Ludwick who was right there in stats with Pujols.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby Neato Torpedo » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:14 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:its not a matter of wheather you like it or not. its the way it is. there are lots of things i dont like. i dont like that the Yankees can go out and spend as much money as they want to try and buy a championship, but baseball isnt doing anything about it. i think thats flawed and there should be some type of salary cap, but i doubt its going to happen anytime soon.
there are some voters who vote on the MVP as who was the best player statistically regardless of how their team did, but then there are also voters who vote based on value and not only the stats said player put up but what effect they had on their teams success.
one way they determine who to vote for for MVP is taking that player off that team how would they do. if you take both Pujols off the Cardinals and Manny off the Dodgers ill bet my last dollar the Cardinals would be a better team without Pujols than the Dodgers would be without Manny. the Cardinals have better supporting cast than the Dodgers including Ludwick who was right there in stats with Pujols.

Ludwick went into a slump when Pujols went down and heated back up immediately when Pujols returned. :-? Could it be that Pujols' success ended up giving Ludwick better pitches to hit?

Also, what we're saying here is what represents the players' true value, not the value that sportswriters assign.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:30 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:its not a matter of wheather you like it or not. its the way it is. there are lots of things i dont like. i dont like that the Yankees can go out and spend as much money as they want to try and buy a championship, but baseball isnt doing anything about it. i think thats flawed and there should be some type of salary cap, but i doubt its going to happen anytime soon.
there are some voters who vote on the MVP as who was the best player statistically regardless of how their team did, but then there are also voters who vote based on value and not only the stats said player put up but what effect they had on their teams success.


Right. The guys who take team success into account are wrong. Ryan Howard is in no way, shape or form, even in the top 10 of the NL's most valuable players. Either is Manny. Of course people are going to vote for them. We all know this. I'm not debating who WILL win the award. I'm debating about who SHOULD win the award. Neither of those guys are close to being MVP. The most valuable player in the National League in 2008 was Albert Pujols, and it's not really close.

one way they determine who to vote for for MVP is taking that player off that team how would they do. if you take both Pujols off the Cardinals and Manny off the Dodgers ill bet my last dollar the Cardinals would be a better team without Pujols than the Dodgers would be without Manny. the Cardinals have better supporting cast than the Dodgers including Ludwick who was right there in stats with Pujols.


This is a laughable argument. Laughable.

You're taking into account team success. If you took Pujols of St. Louis and Manny of LA, it doesn't matter who has the better record. It matters how many wins each team would have lost. If you take Manny off the Dodgers, they would have won less games, but how many less? Now take Pujols off the Cardinals. How many more games would the Cardinals have lost? The number for St. Louis is going to be DRASTICALLY higher, ESPECIALLY since Manny played TWO freaking MONTHS.

What if Pujols and Howard switched places? Do you honestly believe Howard would have gotten St. Louis to the playoffs and Pujols wouldn't have gotten the Phillies to where they were? If the Phillies had Pujols, they would have won MANY more games than they did. If St. Louis had Howard, they would have won NOWHERE near as many games as they did. How then, is Howard more valuable than Pujols?

Pujols had 35 Win Shares. Howard had 25. Manny 18.

I repeat, this argument is laughable.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby J35J » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:05 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:Ryan Howard is in no way, shape or form, even in the top 10 of the NL's most valuable players.


I wouldn't go that far. As caveman(ish) as the HR and RBI is in evaluating players I'd still take the guy who leads the league in homeruns AND rbis over the majority of other guys regardless of the lineup, homepark or whatever other factors you want to throw out there. Is he better than Pujols, no, i'm just sayin.


...carry on with this stupid debate... :-)
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby HOOTIE » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:51 pm

J35J wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:Ryan Howard is in no way, shape or form, even in the top 10 of the NL's most valuable players.


I wouldn't go that far. As caveman(ish) as the HR and RBI is in evaluating players I'd still take the guy who leads the league in homeruns AND rbis over the majority of other guys regardless of the lineup, homepark or whatever other factors you want to throw out there. Is he better than Pujols, no, i'm just sayin.


...carry on with this stupid debate... :-)


Howard, Delgado, Manny, CC didn't make my top 10. Howard probably makes my 12th spot.

No order, but these 11 did more for their team imo,

Pujols/Wright/Utley/Chipper/Reyes/Ludwick/Braun/Berkman/HRamirez/Beltran/Holliday.

Curious to why you think the debate is stupid? Everybody debates the awards. It's kind of fun.

FNK

LA record before and after Manny do little for me. Too many variables play into it.
What was the Dodgers era before and after?
What was the health of team before and after?
Strength of opponent before and after?
Strength of pitchers faced before and after? Example, did they face Webb/Lincecum/CC more before or after?
The biggest reason imo, was LA benched slugs like Pierre and AJones, and played Kemp/Ethier everyday.
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Re: Is anyone else sick of hearing.....

Postby HOOTIE » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:55 pm

Manny will get a few votes, but i see the writers making it a 2 horse race with Pujols/Howard.

The thing i will never understand, is those in Mannys corner? He played 53 games. That means he did not play in 109 Dodger games. A everyday player misses 109 games, and he's MVP? He better bat 1.000 then, and pitch.
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