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What's the "true" Triple Crown?

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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby mission27 » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:55 pm

Matthias wrote:I don't get the whole backlash to this.

Obviously, the OP isn't saying, "I'm going to petition the MLB to redefine the Triple Crown to SABR measures." He's saying (as I read it), "Hey, I think about baseball, I know you guys on this board think about baseball and if you were to pick 3 stats or combination of stats to tell you who the best pitcher is and who the best hitter is each year, what would they be?" I mean, c'mon, it's not like there hasn't been pages upon pages here kvetching about the Cy Young being heavily influenced by Wins.

That said, I can't say that I am confident enough in understanding the SABR stats as to really weigh in, but off the top of my head, I go with HRs, OBP, and RC/27 for hitters and I don't know for pitchers.


Pretty much my opinion. I'll throw a couple more stats out there.

Hitters -- eqa, woba, slg, ops, ct%, vorp (of course), any version of rc

Pitchers -- K/BB, K/9, BB/9, Ld%, Gb%, Fb%, tRA
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby J35J » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:11 pm

I don't really think of OBP, SLG, OPS, K/9, K/BB, etc. as sabr stats really.....maybe I should. :-?
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby Matthias » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:15 pm

J35J wrote:I don't really think of OBP, SLG, OPS, K/9, K/BB, etc. as sabr stats really.....maybe I should. :-?

I think of SABR as any attempt to objectively measure a player's worth, be it via traditional stats or newly-created ones. It's not change for the sake of change but simply change to get better. And if something is simple and still accurate like OBP or OPS, then so much the better.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby bigh0rt » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:23 pm

To those petitioning (well, not really) for OPS to be one of their cornerstone measures of value, it's just as flawed a stat as any. It counts AVG twice (both in OBP and SLG). I'm really surprised that nobody mentions this more frequently, and it's been a problem I've had with OPS, and people harping on it, for years now. Considering how flawed a measure AVG is, people put a lot of stock in a stat that doubles up on how heavily AVG is weighted. A more accurate measure would be (OPS - AVG), or ISO, which is another great stat that rarely gets mentioned.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby Matthias » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:39 pm

bigh0rt wrote:To those petitioning (well, not really) for OPS to be one of their cornerstone measures of value, it's just as flawed a stat as any. It counts AVG twice (both in OBP and SLG). I'm really surprised that nobody mentions this more frequently, and it's been a problem I've had with OPS, and people harping on it, for years now. Considering how flawed a measure AVG is, people put a lot of stock in a stat that doubles up on how heavily AVG is weighted. A more accurate measure would be (OPS - AVG), or ISO, which is another great stat that rarely gets mentioned.

Not that I think OPS is the end-all, be-all, but I don't see AVG being counted twice as a fatal flaw. If anything, the argument is that OPS doesn't count OBP (obviously related to AVG) enough. See, for example, here.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby Neato Torpedo » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:42 pm

Matthias wrote:I don't get the whole backlash to this.

Obviously, the OP isn't saying, "I'm going to petition the MLB to redefine the Triple Crown to SABR measures." He's saying (as I read it), "Hey, I think about baseball, I know you guys on this board think about baseball and if you were to pick 3 stats or combination of stats to tell you who the best pitcher is and who the best hitter is each year, what would they be?" I mean, c'mon, it's not like there hasn't been pages upon pages here kvetching about the Cy Young being heavily influenced by Wins.

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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby HOOTIE » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:44 pm

It already has gotton bigger. And i see more eventually. ESPN, the basic fan site, has saber stats. Some writers who vote, are taking rc, vorp, etc. into consideration.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/bat ... dDate=null
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby Tavish » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:10 am

Kentucky, Preakness, Belmont.

Most SABR stats would be silly to use since for the most part they are attempts at either a very small, specific skill set or try to be all encompassing so using 3 different ones would be redundant.

To just use 3 different stats that are "improvements" over the current Triple Crown cats I would definitely say OBP, SLG, and OBI%. If you wanted to get real technical about it, park adjust the first two.
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