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What's the "true" Triple Crown?

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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby Snakes Gould » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:08 pm

mission27 wrote:
Snakes Gould wrote:the only thing i never really liked about the triple crown was rbi being included. it seems like a given if someone knocks 55 hr, they're going to have a ton of rbi. sure there are guys who lead the league in homers and not rbi, but it always felt redundant to me. avg means good contact, hr means good power, but what exactly does rbi mean? i wouldnt want it changed in any stretch of the imagination because its been a part of the game for 100 years.

would be kinda cool if rbi was replaced by sb though eh? could you imagine a guy leading the league in home runs and stolen bases? now that'd be somethin'!


RBI is also very team dependent and a terrible measure of player performance. To a certain extent I can live with people looking at BA (Though OBP would be better) and HRs (though SLG would be better) but look at RBI's is just dumb.


i wouldnt go as far as "dumb" but yes i see where you're coming from.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby mission27 » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:21 pm

Snakes Gould wrote:
mission27 wrote:
Snakes Gould wrote:the only thing i never really liked about the triple crown was rbi being included. it seems like a given if someone knocks 55 hr, they're going to have a ton of rbi. sure there are guys who lead the league in homers and not rbi, but it always felt redundant to me. avg means good contact, hr means good power, but what exactly does rbi mean? i wouldnt want it changed in any stretch of the imagination because its been a part of the game for 100 years.

would be kinda cool if rbi was replaced by sb though eh? could you imagine a guy leading the league in home runs and stolen bases? now that'd be somethin'!


RBI is also very team dependent and a terrible measure of player performance. To a certain extent I can live with people looking at BA (Though OBP would be better) and HRs (though SLG would be better) but look at RBI's is just dumb.


i wouldnt go as far as "dumb" but yes i see where you're coming from.


Yeah dumb is harsh. I once used RBI actually. Maybe it would be better put as "yet to be educated in basic sabermetric principles" or something like that.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby J35J » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:08 pm

mission27 wrote:
Snakes Gould wrote:i wouldnt go as far as "dumb" but yes i see where you're coming from.


Yeah dumb is harsh. I once used RBI actually. Maybe it would be better put as "yet to be educated in basic sabermetric principles" or something like that.


Well to be fair, alot of sabermetric crap is pretty dumb too. There are some uses with some of the sabr stats but I think people put to much stock into most of it.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby mission27 » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:11 pm

J35J wrote:
mission27 wrote:
Snakes Gould wrote:i wouldnt go as far as "dumb" but yes i see where you're coming from.


Yeah dumb is harsh. I once used RBI actually. Maybe it would be better put as "yet to be educated in basic sabermetric principles" or something like that.


Well to be fair, alot of sabermetric crap is pretty dumb too. There are some uses with some of the sabr stats but I think people put to much stock into most of it.


What's dumb about it? Complicated is one think, dumb is another. Sabermetrics look at what has happened over the history of baseball in an entirely objective manner.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby J35J » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:13 pm

mission27 wrote:
J35J wrote:
mission27 wrote:
Yeah dumb is harsh. I once used RBI actually. Maybe it would be better put as "yet to be educated in basic sabermetric principles" or something like that.


Well to be fair, alot of sabermetric crap is pretty dumb too. There are some uses with some of the sabr stats but I think people put to much stock into most of it.


What's dumb about it? Complicated is one think, dumb is another. Sabermetrics look at what has happened over the history of baseball in an entirely objective manner.


I don't really want to get into it, its like talking politics or religion with some people. I just wanted to throw my opinion out there is all.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby mission27 » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:15 pm

J35J wrote:
mission27 wrote:
J35J wrote:
Well to be fair, alot of sabermetric crap is pretty dumb too. There are some uses with some of the sabr stats but I think people put to much stock into most of it.


What's dumb about it? Complicated is one think, dumb is another. Sabermetrics look at what has happened over the history of baseball in an entirely objective manner.


I don't really want to get into it, its like talking politics or religion with some people. I just wanted to throw my opinion out there is all.


Alright. I just hate when people criticize Sabermetrics. The world could use a lot more objectivity imo.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby HOOTIE » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:56 pm

J35J wrote:Well to be fair, alot of sabermetric crap is pretty dumb too. There are some uses with some of the sabr stats but I think people put to much stock into most of it.


I would like to hear your reasoning on this? You can PM if you like?

I'm not crazy about the Triple Crown. Guys like Ichiro or Sizemore could never win hitting 1st. But on a interesting note. Every Triple Crown winner, also lead his league in runs created, which surprised me.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby J35J » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:22 pm

I just think alot of the sabr stuff is overkill and not needed. Most of the results people come up with using sabr stats I generally have come up with already by watching the player play and using the more "basic" or "standard" stats. And things like, well I can compare what Babe Ruth did in 1922 to what Bonds did in 2004 because stat xOUERo and xFRoD and blah blah blah, is just silly to me. Or, this stat xOBPIDOF tells me that if this player played in this park he would be better than this player playing in that park... %-6

I mean you don't need to fall back on runs created to tell you the guy who wins the triple crown is the best player in the league that year do you...and if it turns out that a guy does win the triple crown without actually having the best season then I'd venture to guess most knowledgable baseball fans would be able to figure that out without the aid of runs created, VORP, win shares or whatever else, IMO.

Don't get me wrong....some of the stuff is fun to look at and even useful but it feels like their is a new sabr stat popping up every day and I feel like we're just overanalyzing things we generally already know.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby HOOTIE » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:42 pm

Sabermetrics basically gives a better evaluation of what really took place. The average fan, basically has little idea of stat importance. I don't think of any of it as overkill. It's like getting out of the caveman age. MLB is using sabermetrics more every year, from hiring the James, Shandlers, Laws, to reading BP book. It's only going to get bigger down the road.
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Re: What's the "true" Triple Crown?

Postby Old_Style » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:46 pm

So, is this a hypothetical or would some of you guys really like to see a Bill James Triple Crown Award? O:-)
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