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Orza: Steroids no worse than cigarettes!!!

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Postby great gretzky » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:36 pm

Um no they are not legal. They legal for doctors to prescribe for legitimate medical reasons, NOT for performance enhancement. They are a controlled substance. Morphine is "legal" in that sense, but you or I could not be found in possesion of it. They are only legal for those who have a legitimate prescription for them, not for baseball players to go to questionable sources to obtain them for muscle building purposes. They are not over the counter medication, thus anywone who posseses them without a prescription is in violation of the law, thus it is illegal activity.

Cigarettes, however are legal for any individual over 18 to purchase. Major difference there.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:57 pm

great gretzky wrote:Um no they are not legal. They legal for doctors to prescribe for legitimate medical reasons, NOT for performance enhancement. They are a controlled substance. Morphine is "legal" in that sense, but you or I could not be found in possesion of it. They are only legal for those who have a legitimate prescription for them, not for baseball players to go to questionable sources to obtain them for muscle building purposes. They are not over the counter medication, thus anywone who posseses them without a prescription is in violation of the law, thus it is illegal activity.

Cigarettes, however are legal for any individual over 18 to purchase. Major difference there.


And if you had originally said that possession without a prescription is illegal, that would have been correct. Steroids are not illegal. Possession of steroids without a prescription is illegal. Distribution of steroids without a medical license is illegal.

All of which is irrelevant to the question that was posed to Orza, as to whether a union should step aside and allow an employer to violate a player's privacy rights just because he may or may not use a substance that harms his health. The legality of the substance is immaterial to the issue. Many things we do harm our health. That's not a good reason to give employers leave to invade our rights.
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Postby great gretzky » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:35 pm

ultimately, that is arguing semantics. the point is that cigarettes are not even int he same sphere of existance in terms of legality.

Actually, in controlled substances "innocent until proven guilty" is not really the sense of how they are "legal"/ It is incumbent on the person to have a legitamate reason to posses them ANd a legitmate reason to posses them. The reality is, that EVEN If there was a prescription for them, it woudl still be illegal to use them for a reason they weren't proscribed (think of oxycontin) or for an illigitmate reason in the first place. Even if there is a legitimate prescription for steroids, (in the paperwork sense), if that prescription is given for muscle gain, it would still be illegal, despite having a prescription for it.

Second of all, even if both of them WERE legal in the same sense of the word, (of which they are not) they are still illegal under the rules of major league baseball, while cigarettes are not. Think of gambling, you and I can do it legally, but major league baseball has an even stricter stance towards that for its players.

My orignal claim is correct in that steroids would be illegal for any of the players in mlb who used them. I would concede that PERHAPS some have some legal calim to them. but lets be honest, they don't. And lets also admit that drug testing in many workplaces has been upheld in more than one case.

As stated before these situations are not similiar. It is not an apt comparison. Steroids are illegal UNLESS you have a reason to have them, until you provide a vlaid reason for having them. Cigarettes are always legal, no proof necessary.

One is also illegal by major league baseball standards. A right to privacy would not exist in an investigation for gambling. In some instances, it is legal to posses pot. That does not mean that it is legal. It just means that in some instances its illegal nature is waived.

It by the way is not "an invasion of an employees rights" many corporations ahve drug testing for their employees. A right to privacy does not give you any protection for hiding illegal activity OR activity that the employer has a legitmate reason for barring said activity from their employee - like alcohol abuse for a school bus driver etc. It isn't jsut that they are investigating stuff that is harmful to their health either. The substance being tested also does a harm to the game. That twin problem of steroids is the real issue.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:38 am

great gretzky wrote: And lets also admit that drug testing in many workplaces has been upheld in more than one case.

One is also illegal by major league baseball standards. A right to privacy would not exist in an investigation for gambling. In some instances, it is legal to posses pot. That does not mean that it is legal. It just means that in some instances its illegal nature is waived.

It by the way is not "an invasion of an employees rights" many corporations ahve drug testing for their employees. A right to privacy does not give you any protection for hiding illegal activity OR activity that the employer has a legitmate reason for barring said activity from their employee - like alcohol abuse for a school bus driver etc. It isn't jsut that they are investigating stuff that is harmful to their health either. The substance being tested also does a harm to the game. That twin problem of steroids is the real issue.


It is an invasion of your constitutional rights. Many employers do have drug testing as a condition of employment, but the conditions under which drug-testing can be used for workers is not at all clear. The one Supreme Court case concerned customs workers where they narrowly ruled that in that case that drug testing was permitted. Many, many courts have ruled that blanket drug testing of employees is not permitted.

In addition, suspicion of gambling or use of drugs does not allow employers or the state for that matter to run roughshod over your privacy rights. The employer or the government can certainly investigate using legal means that suspicion, but legal means precludes the use of drug tests unless you have reasonable basis for suspicion.

Furthermore, what you are ignoring here is the presence of a union. Any drug-testing of unionized employees is a condition of work that must be negotiated with the union.

And Orza's point is dead-on. Just because a substance is harmful to health, regardless whether it is legal or illegal, and regardless whether it harms the game, is no reason for a union to sign away its workers privacy rights. That must be negotiated by their employer.
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Postby KULCAT » Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:34 am

[quote="GotowarMissAgnes"]I think you need to read again what Orza is saying and understand teh context. He was responding to a question which suggested that the union should favor drug testing because steroids harmed player's health.

In response to that, he makes a very valid point--that a union should not simply hand over its members' privacy rights just because something harms their health. Cigarettes, as he points out, are much more harmful to health than steroids. Yet, we don't think unions should allow an invasion of privacy rights and penalties for smoking.

How about dope, speed and crack cocaine? I mean, hey its their private life right? If it harms the game and i think it does then its MLB´s bussiness i cant believe anyone would defend stereoid use. Especially Gene Orza/Kent
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:53 pm

KULCAT wrote:How about dope, speed and crack cocaine? I mean, hey its their private life right? If it harms the game and i think it does then its MLB´s bussiness i cant believe anyone would defend stereoid use. Especially Gene Orza/Kent


No one is defending steroid use. Orza is defending the privacy rights of players, many of whom do not use steroids or anything else.

What the hell do you guys expect? If an employer walks into an office and demands that an employee pee in a cup because "Drug use is bad for his business", you want the employee to drop and pee? What kind of union would simply cave and agree to this (well, one with no members, that's for sure)

Have you ever read the constitution? We are talking about blanket, random, unreasonable searches. Yes, damn it, IT IS YOUR PRIVATE LIFE. It's hard to believe that Americans would agree in such sheep-like fashion to surrender a privacy right that took many, many years and lives to secure.
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Postby LBJackal » Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:10 pm

I didn't read the whole article, bt I'm also pretty sure that cigarettes are worse than steroids, if steroids are used properly. I'm not condoning it, saying it's OK for baseball, saying we should test, or saying it's an invasion of provacy. Just pointing out that smoking cigarettes WILL kill yuo if you never quit, but steroids won't neccesarily kill you if you don't go overboard on them. Shrink your balls? Yes. Cause other problems with your health? Yes. But most likely they won't kill you.

They should go out and make steroids illegal in baseball, and then they can test without worries (maybe that was part of the CBA, I'm not sure, but if not, they should implement it). I don't think anybody here has a problem with them testing for steroids if they're a banned substance.
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Postby TheRawDAWG » Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:55 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
KULCAT wrote:How about dope, speed and crack cocaine? I mean, hey its their private life right? If it harms the game and i think it does then its MLB´s bussiness i cant believe anyone would defend stereoid use. Especially Gene Orza/Kent


No one is defending steroid use. Orza is defending the privacy rights of players, many of whom do not use steroids or anything else.

What the hell do you guys expect? If an employer walks into an office and demands that an employee pee in a cup because "Drug use is bad for his business", you want the employee to drop and pee? What kind of union would simply cave and agree to this (well, one with no members, that's for sure)

Have you ever read the constitution? We are talking about blanket, random, unreasonable searches. Yes, damn it, IT IS YOUR PRIVATE LIFE. It's hard to believe that Americans would agree in such sheep-like fashion to surrender a privacy right that took many, many years and lives to secure.



There are many jobs where you need to take tests as a condition of employment. Why wouldn't the player's union be defending the players that aren't taking steriods? There seems to be alot more of them then the ones that do take them. Football and Basketball have drug tests. They seem to be doing just fine. I'm not real strong with the law and all but I believe if the players you're trying to protect want to be tested then shouldn't you allow them to test? And who can you say there isn't enough evidence against them? Man, pull your head out of the sand. The constitution wasn't designed to protect criminals.

Also, this doesn't send a very good message to the kids trying to become baseball players. 'You better do steriods to get the edge. You know the other kids will be doing them.' What a joke. Are you a defence attorney? That would explain alot.
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Postby Nomar4prez » Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:05 pm

LBJackal wrote:I didn't read the whole article, bt I'm also pretty sure that cigarettes are worse than steroids, if steroids are used properly. I'm not condoning it, saying it's OK for baseball, saying we should test, or saying it's an invasion of provacy. Just pointing out that smoking cigarettes WILL kill yuo if you never quit, but steroids won't neccesarily kill you if you don't go overboard on them. Shrink your balls? Yes. Cause other problems with your health? Yes. But most likely they won't kill you.

They should go out and make steroids illegal in baseball, and then they can test without worries (maybe that was part of the CBA, I'm not sure, but if not, they should implement it). I don't think anybody here has a problem with them testing for steroids if they're a banned substance.


No one really knows what steroids does and doesn't do to your body. We do know that it possibly could have some extremely bad long-term affects, such as weakening of the heart, and certain types of cancers. BUT, we really don't know yet. It's extremely sad to say, but I think it will take someone to die of steriod usage before we start cracking down on it(Just like ephedra).

And why should MLB have to make steroids illegal in baseball, when they are already illegal in the United States, except for certain MEDICAL reasons? I say if someone gets caught using steroids, they broke the law, and need to pay for it, either by a fine or jail time. No matter how you try to spin it, steroid is an illegal drug, and people who use it improperly are breaking the law of the United States.
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Postby LBJackal » Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:14 pm

Why should steroids be illegal in baseball? Wow, are you serious. Other than the fact that they can be deadly (there are lots of cases where steroids killed pro athletes........look at wrestling alone: Hawk of LOD, British Bulldog, and Curt Hennig (Mr. Perfect) died as well, although I'm not sure if Mr. Perfect was from steroids. Arnold Schwarzenegger had very bad medical illnesses from steroids as well. They are deadly. If you want to allow them in baseball, thats ridiculous. You might as well send a letter out to everyone that says

"Dear valued MLB player. We are allowing players to use deadly performance enhancing drugs in order to get an edge on the competition. You will most likely be out of a job unless you choose to put your life in extreme danger as well. Sincerely, Bud Selig"

How can anybody say they should be legal in baseball? It's just plain ignorant.
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