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Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby Snakes Gould » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:41 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:Excellent post Art.


agreed, like usual. ;-D
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby RugbyD » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:48 pm

Madison wrote:Provided you believe the story. If memory serves, there was someone on the first page refuting that it went the way the story said (and it wasn't me). And we all know about the sensationalistic media, so fully buying it and being "outraged" while ignoring how the entire thing got started seemed awfully drastic to me.

It was just a reference to a reaction he was having to some meds or something.

So I acknowledged both sides in my first post, and even predicted the discussion would go this way. Knew no one else would acknowledge Mr. Ng's responsibility, it would only be an argument about what happened after he chose to break the law. Go me for predicting that correctly. ;-7 Haha. :-b ;-)

I think pretty much everyone has acknowledged his responsibility. He overstayed a visa and was getting deported. Done.
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby Madison » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:18 am

Ok, now that hopefully the junk is done, I've got a couple of questions. :-)

And I preface this by saying again that if there was any wrongdoing by anyone in the Immigration Department, they should have the book thrown at them. My question really isn't about that, more just general questions.

What level of healthcare should be provided?

Remember that "the best possible" is a poor answer because it opens the floodgates for people to come into the country illegally, give themselves up, and get free healthcare to fix whatever their ailments are. So "the best possible" really doesn't work.

And what should happen in a case like Mr. Ng's where they would have found cancer?

And remember that Mr. Ng was still being held here because his family was fighting the deportation. If they hadn't fought it, he'd have been deported already. Doesn't seem fair to me to burden the law abiding taxpayers and make them (us) pay for it, since he broke the law and would already be deported if his family hadn't fought it. Bad enough we fed, clothed, housed him for over a year due to his choices and his family's choices, but add cancer treatement to that list? That's an awful lot to ask. :-o
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby RugbyD » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:18 am

Madison wrote:Ok, now that hopefully the junk is done, I've got a couple of questions. :-)

And I preface this by saying again that if there was any wrongdoing by anyone in the Immigration Department, they should have the book thrown at them. My question really isn't about that, more just general questions.

What level of healthcare should be provided?

Remember that "the best possible" is a poor answer because it opens the floodgates for people to come into the country illegally, give themselves up, and get free healthcare to fix whatever their ailments are. So "the best possible" really doesn't work.

And what should happen in a case like Mr. Ng's where they would have found cancer?

And remember that Mr. Ng was still being held here because his family was fighting the deportation. If they hadn't fought it, he'd have been deported already. Doesn't seem fair to me to burden the law abiding taxpayers and make them (us) pay for it, since he broke the law and would already be deported if his family hadn't fought it. Bad enough we fed, clothed, housed him for over a year due to his choices and his family's choices, but add cancer treatement to that list? That's an awful lot to ask. :-o

It is unclear what medical care would be available to him. He may have had coverage through his contract job or spousal coverage; we don't know. They definitely had the means to secure an independent medical evaluation, but were denied. At a minimum the system should provide diagnostic services to investigate what ailment the detainee is suffering from, something they clearly did not do here, instead electing to ignore signs of constant severe pain and visually clear physical degeneration. I think this is especially important in a case where the detention is being contested and there is the possibility that they would not ultimately be deported. As long as that possibility exists he should have access to whatever medical care he would have had outside detention, with the costs borne by the appropriate party. I think it would be fair to assume that if he had been appropriately diagnosed, there would be medical options available either within or ouside of the system.

In the broader picture, taking custody of someone comes with some sort of minimal responsibility of care because you are now in total control of that person's life. We give food, clothing, and shelter. A minimal level of medical care is also reasonable, though there will be plenty of viewpoints over what defines minimal. I would say that for consistency's sake, immigration detainees should have the same options as illegals in the prison system. I certainly don't see healthcare as a universal right, but choosing to take custody of someone entainls a certain level of responsibility.
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby Madison » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:33 pm

RugbyD wrote:It is unclear what medical care would be available to him. He may have had coverage through his contract job or spousal coverage; we don't know. They definitely had the means to secure an independent medical evaluation, but were denied. At a minimum the system should provide diagnostic services to investigate what ailment the detainee is suffering from, something they clearly did not do here, instead electing to ignore signs of constant severe pain and visually clear physical degeneration. I think this is especially important in a case where the detention is being contested and there is the possibility that they would not ultimately be deported. As long as that possibility exists he should have access to whatever medical care he would have had outside detention, with the costs borne by the appropriate party. I think it would be fair to assume that if he had been appropriately diagnosed, there would be medical options available either within or ouside of the system.

In the broader picture, taking custody of someone comes with some sort of minimal responsibility of care because you are now in total control of that person's life. We give food, clothing, and shelter. A minimal level of medical care is also reasonable, though there will be plenty of viewpoints over what defines minimal. I would say that for consistency's sake, immigration detainees should have the same options as illegals in the prison system. I certainly don't see healthcare as a universal right, but choosing to take custody of someone entainls a certain level of responsibility.


Not sure he'd be covered by any insurance, seeing as how he was no longer a legal resident. Like car insurance, if your driver's license expires, you're no longer covered by your automobile insurance. I don't know how that works as far as health insurance goes. I've never dealt with health insurance, so I've got no clue. :-?

And he at least did get some sort of medical treatment. He was on painkillers and medication according to the article. According to a post on page 1, the chaplin says Mr. Ng was physically able to attack other people (they think it was due to the medication, so he did at least see a doctor), so I can see how the guards might think he was faking the illness (not making any excuses for their behavior if they did act the way the article states, just pointing out other information we've been provided). Took an MRI to find the cancer, and MRI's are not cheap. :-o Not to mention that he would have already been deported if his family hadn't held it up.

So it made me curious as to what the solution is, because I dunno. :-S :-? I guess bill the family? He broke the law and the only reason he was still being held was because the family was appealing it and fighting it in court (meaning the financial burden shouldn't fall on the taxpayers in my opinion). So would billing the family be the wrong way to go? But then we run into the problem of people with no family, or the entire family being deported. They'd be in the system a whole lot less time (less chance they'd need medical care), but I'm sure at some point someone would have a serious problem, so what's the fix? :-?
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby RugbyD » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:33 pm

Madison wrote:And he at least did get some sort of medical treatment. He was on painkillers and medication according to the article. According to a post on page 1, the chaplin says Mr. Ng was physically able to attack other people (they think it was due to the medication, so he did at least see a doctor), so I can see how the guards might think he was faking the illness (not making any excuses for their behavior if they did act the way the article states, just pointing out other information we've been provided). Took an MRI to find the cancer, and MRI's are not cheap. :-o Not to mention that he would have already been deported if his family hadn't held it up.

I'm not sure I'd call being given painkillers 'medical treatment'. Painkillers address the pain, not the source thereof. I can also see why guards might think he'd be faking illness initially, but this was a several-months-long ordeal where a man withered away, had cancer so pervasive that it broke his back, and was rendered immobile. I would not at all be surprised if the painkillers were viewed by the staff as a way to avoid dealing with a serious problem, hoping instead that they could just get rid of him before the situation blew up in their face instead of living up to their custodial responsibility.
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby Madison » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:04 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Madison wrote:And he at least did get some sort of medical treatment. He was on painkillers and medication according to the article. According to a post on page 1, the chaplin says Mr. Ng was physically able to attack other people (they think it was due to the medication, so he did at least see a doctor), so I can see how the guards might think he was faking the illness (not making any excuses for their behavior if they did act the way the article states, just pointing out other information we've been provided). Took an MRI to find the cancer, and MRI's are not cheap. :-o Not to mention that he would have already been deported if his family hadn't held it up.

I'm not sure I'd call being given painkillers 'medical treatment'. Painkillers address the pain, not the source thereof. I can also see why guards might think he'd be faking illness initially, but this was a several-months-long ordeal where a man withered away, had cancer so pervasive that it broke his back, and was rendered immobile. I would not at all be surprised if the painkillers were viewed by the staff as a way to avoid dealing with a serious problem, hoping instead that they could just get rid of him before the situation blew up in their face instead of living up to their custodial responsibility.


Correct me if I'm wrong (because it is possible I am wrong), but painkillers can't be prescribed except by a physician, right?

And his attack on other people was blamed on medication, not painkillers.

Can someone be the "Director of Nursing" and not be a doctor? Because the "Director of Nursing" made a statement in the article concerning Mr. Ng's care.

Also according to the article, Wyatt is a 700 bed center with its own medical staff.

So everything leads me to believe he was in fact seen by a doctor. It doesn't say anywhere that he wasn't given any medical care or never saw a doctor, which I'm sure it would have stated if he had been fully denied any medical care whatsoever.

I'm sure cost played a factor as to how deep the medical care went. If memory serves (I'll look it up if I need to though), I payed just under $6,000 for 2 MRI's (just under $3,000 each) when my appendix blew a couple of months ago. That's not exactly something they can just do for everyone in the system that claims to be in pain. Unless of course there are policies and procedures for payment of those costs. It's too much money to put on the taxpayer's shoulders, so what's the fix? :-?
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby RugbyD » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:09 pm

Madison wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong (because it is possible I am wrong), but painkillers can't be prescribed except by a physician, right?

And his attack on other people was blamed on medication, not painkillers.

Can someone be the "Director of Nursing" and not be a doctor? Because the "Director of Nursing" made a statement in the article concerning Mr. Ng's care.

Also according to the article, Wyatt is a 700 bed center with its own medical staff.

So everything leads me to believe he was in fact seen by a doctor. It doesn't say anywhere that he wasn't given any medical care or never saw a doctor, which I'm sure it would have stated if he had been fully denied any medical care whatsoever.

I'm sure cost played a factor as to how deep the medical care went. If memory serves (I'll look it up if I need to though), I payed just under $6,000 for 2 MRI's (just under $3,000 each) when my appendix blew a couple of months ago. That's not exactly something they can just do for everyone in the system that claims to be in pain. Unless of course there are policies and procedures for payment of those costs. It's too much money to put on the taxpayer's shoulders, so what's the fix? :-?

You don't have to be an MD to prescribe medication. Certian levels of nurses can do it as well. Painkillers are medication, but I don't think it was stated what meds he had a reaction to, but they certainly were not anti-cancer meds. We do know from the article that he was on some sort of painkiller, at least until he was so far gone that he couldn't get out of bed to stand in line for them. That they whould bring painkillers to the bed-ridden is appalling.

Ng was in 3 different facilities, one of which was Wyatt. Just because it has a medical staff doesn't mean he benfited from its services. THe article states that while he was in a small facility with no medical staff his family tried to get him moved to Wyatt so he could be treated, but were denied. Just being seen by a doctor doesn't mean any relevant medical care was provided. Doping someone up to the extent that they're able to stand in line to get it does not come close to qualifying as treatment for an ailment. They clearly never bothered to find out what was wrong with him.

You voluntarily don't have medical insurance, right? You MRI pricing would then reflect a non-negotiated (aka full) price. When I get home I'll check my EOB to see what mine was charged at throught BCBS. I could be wrong, but i think you can see cancer in xrays too.
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby RugbyD » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:48 pm

MRI full charge was 2975. PPO covered services brought it down to 1325 paid by BCBS and 189 paid by me.
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby Madison » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:58 pm

RugbyD wrote:You voluntarily don't have medical insurance, right? You MRI pricing would then reflect a non-negotiated (aka full) price. When I get home I'll check my EOB to see what mine was charged at throught BCBS. I could be wrong, but i think you can see cancer in xrays too.


Depends on what you call "voluntary". At a little over $600 per month, it's a luxury I cannot afford.

Even with your insurance numbers and all, you're still over $1,500 per MRI. Times how many people that claim to be in pain? Scary burden to lay on the taxpayers. Even moreso when the two reasons Mr. Ng was in custody was by choices he and his family made. Perfect to me would be to lay that financial burden (along with the additional costs due to the court tie up, which includes food, clothes, shelter, etc) on him and his family, but even if that was the way it went, there are still those with no family or the entire family is being deported. So that fix doesn't work and cover all the bases either. :-?
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