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Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby RugbyD » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:26 pm

Madison wrote:As I said earlier though, why is it you're "Gung Ho!" to blame the immigration department (if they did anything wrong, and I do agree that an investigation should be conducted to find out), yet you ignore Mr. Ng's responsibility in this? :-? How can you expect an institution of thousands (?) of people to be responsible for their actions when you give a free pass to individuals (Mr. Ng)?

That confuses me. Help?

And I'm not saying what the guards allegedly did was Mr. Ng's responsibility, simply that it would have been impossible for the guards to do what they allegedly did if Mr. Ng had simply followed the law to begin with. The timeline you used wouldn't have existed, none of it would have happened. So the majority of the responsibility or blame for this situation is squarely on his shoulders since he started the timeline by breaking the law.

I haven't ignored Ng's responsibility at all. I said he should be deported as the law indicates. That is the one and only result that should derive from his actions and he bears full responsibility for it. Anything in the timeline that happens otherwise is independent of his influence, so he should not bear any resposibility.

If you're argument is solely going to rest on when the timeline started and deny the independence of decisions made within the timeline, it becomes an entirely arbitrary measure with an infinite number of iterations that we can use to assign blame to anything from a butterfly in Brazil to Kevin Bacon.
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby BitterDodgerFan » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:38 pm

gosh this discussion is really getting ridiculous. i know you're the admin here and all but i gotta say, madison you're making yourself look worse with each response in this thread. do you have an ounce of humanity and compassion for others? it doesn't matter if he murdered someone or robbed a bank, to die in this manner is still unacceptable. you keep saying "if he hadn't overstayed..." stuff but that's not what the discussion is about. issues like this are not so clear cut black and white, there are complex issues and circumstances that leave a person in an unfortunate situation all the time. to come out with an initial response of how he got into this mess because of the original circumstances is plain cruel and inhumane. some of the responses just make me sick to my stomach. :-L
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby Art Vandelay » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:06 pm

Getting to this discussion late, so I'll just post some disjointed thoughts:

To me, Ng isn't free of responsibility at all, he was in custody and set to face trial (or whatever) to be held responsible for his misdeeds. The punishment that he would have faced is not death.

The people in whom's custody Ng was in were responsible for his well-being. At the point of his death, the reason that he was in their custody is immaterial. They failed in their responsibilities and that failure resulted in a man's death.

Madison, I generally hate to appeal to base emotions or try to make things personal, so forgive me for doing both right here: If I remember correctly, you have a child. If at some point in the future, your kid were to get busted for, like, shoplifting (or whatever), then died while in custody of the juvenile department of something that was easily preventable if someone would have just lifted a finger to help, would you say, "well, he should't have shoplifted." Or if he is going 60 mph in a 55 zone, crashes, and dies while EMTs sit there and watch but don't do anything would the response be "well, he shouldn't have been speeding."

Holding X responsible for their actions doesn't absolve Y of his own responsiblity.
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:15 pm

Excellent post Art.
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby Mookie4ever » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:25 pm

Madison wrote:And I'm not saying what the guards allegedly did was Mr. Ng's responsibility, simply that it would have been impossible for the guards to do what they allegedly did if Mr. Ng had simply followed the law to begin with. The timeline you used wouldn't have existed, none of it would have happened. So the majority of the responsibility or blame for this situation is squarely on his shoulders since he started the timeline by breaking the law.



Wow, just wow. If breaking the law is carte blanche to commit negligent homicide you had better not speed Madison or you are putting your life at risk.

Saying that "the majority of the responsibility or blame for this situation is squarely on his shoulders since he started the timeline by breaking the law" is ridiculous. Rodney King was breaking the law but that did not give the LAPD the right to beat him within an inch of his life. I respect cops and have the utmost gratitude for their service. By the same token they are held to a higher standard. Police men and corrections officer are officers of the court and should act as such.

Ng was not a violent criminal and was not even convicted of anything. He was a productive contributing member of society and deserved at least some consideration and respect. If he needs to get deported because that's what the rules say then deport him but he did not deserve this and to say that he was the author of his own demise is is is crazy. Move over Terence Trent D'Arby, we've got the Hardline according to Madison. X-I
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby Madison » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:51 pm

RugbyD wrote:I haven't ignored Ng's responsibility at all. I said he should be deported as the law indicates. That is the one and only result that should derive from his actions and he bears full responsibility for it. Anything in the timeline that happens otherwise is independent of his influence, so he should not bear any resposibility.

If you're argument is solely going to rest on when the timeline started and deny the independence of decisions made within the timeline, it becomes an entirely arbitrary measure with an infinite number of iterations that we can use to assign blame to anything from a butterfly in Brazil to Kevin Bacon.


Guess I just haven't see it then. Even the title of this thread ignores Mr. Ng's responsibility and is aimed at the immigration department. This wasn't a "IF this happened", or "check this out", or "what a sad situation" type of post/thread, it was a full on assault at the immigration department while ignoring Mr. Ng's responsibility for the entire mess getting started.

So I piped up, pointed out the obvious, and here we are. :-b

BitterDodgerFan wrote:i know you're the admin here and all but i gotta say, madison you're making yourself look worse with each response in this thread. do you have an ounce of humanity and compassion for others?


Doesn't matter what title I may have, completely irrelevant to anything. It's simply a discussion and any member is welcome to contribute to a discussion. ;-D

If it makes me look bad that I acknowledge Mr. Ng started the ball rolling by choosing to break the law, so be it. If Mr. Ng hadn't broken the law, this wouldn't have happened. There's no way to argue against that, it is simply the truth. And if I'm the bad guy for pointing that out the facts and the obvious, it won't be the first (or last) time I'll be the bad guy for not just looking the other way and excusing actions like his.

And yes, I have compassion for others, and have said that an investigation needs to happen to determine if this went the way the story says it did, but that does not excuse Mr. Ng of his responsibility and his ability to have completely avoided the entire thing. Him having passed doesn't absolve him of shouldering his portion of the blame. May sound cold hearted, but it's the truth.

This is actually a matter of 2 seperate things. I choose to focus on the man responsible for starting it all, where as Rugby and others choose to focus on what everyone else allegedly did wrong. Would be like someone setting a bomb in a stadium, then calling it in to the bomb squad. People would crush and trample people (possibly killing said people) during the evacuation. I choose to place the majority of the blame on the person who set the bomb, where as other people would rather shift the majority of the blame to those who did the trampling. We're not really disagreeing that there were tons of wrongs in this situation, we're debating where the majority of the blame for the entire thing should go (kinda silly in retrospect :-b - guess we're bored). And for me it boils down to where it started, with Mr. Ng choosing to break the law.

Art Vandelay wrote:Madison, I generally hate to appeal to base emotions or try to make things personal, so forgive me for doing both right here: If I remember correctly, you have a child. If at some point in the future, your kid were to get busted for, like, shoplifting (or whatever), then died while in custody of the juvenile department of something that was easily preventable if someone would have just lifted a finger to help, would you say, "well, he should't have shoplifted." Or if he is going 60 mph in a 55 zone, crashes, and dies while EMTs sit there and watch but don't do anything would the response be "well, he shouldn't have been speeding."

Holding X responsible for their actions doesn't absolve Y of his own responsiblity.


Yep, 10 year old boy. Nice memory. ;-D

The final line is priceless. Nicely done and I certainly agree. ;-D

However, to answer your question, I know very few people in the world still take responsibility for their own actions, but I am one of them and so is my boy. Ultimately he would be responsible in either of those scenarios. Yes, there would be other people responsible for their actions (or non-actions) as well, but at the crux of it all, my boy would be responsible because he put himself in those positions. If he hadn't chosen to do what he did, none of it ever would have happened, so he would certainly shoulder the majority of the blame/responsibility.

Mookie4ever wrote:Wow, just wow. If breaking the law is carte blanche to commit negligent homicide you had better not speed Madison or you are putting your life at risk.


Where did I say that? :-b

As to the rest of your post (and this really goes for anyone), please explain how all of this still would have occurred if Mr. Ng had renewed his Visa back when he was supposed to. Please. :-)
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby Madison » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:28 pm

Re-reading this and thinking about it all, a question:

Those of you who blame the Immigration Department, are you doing it because they made the "biggest" mistake? :-? I agree that possibly being responsible for someone's death is a much larger infraction than simply renewing someone's work visa. I don't disagree with that at all.

But here's something to ponder and maybe you'll get why I view it the way I do...

Let's say you're driving along the road and get hit by a drunk driver. You didn't know it, but your license had expired. The drunk driver did something "worse" by driving while intoxicated, where as you simply forgot to renew your license. But you do realize that while both of you would face consequences, as far as the courts are concerned, the accident would be written up as your fault, right? (no license means you never should have been on the road to get hit - true story, happened to a friend I used to bowl with).

That's all I'm getting at here. Responsibility for a situation isn't always on who made the "biggest" mistake.
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby RugbyD » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:40 pm

Madison wrote:Guess I just haven't see it then. Even the title of this thread ignores Mr. Ng's responsibility and is aimed at the immigration department. This wasn't a "IF this happened", or "check this out", or "what a sad situation" type of post/thread, it was a full on assault at the immigration department while ignoring Mr. Ng's responsibility for the entire mess getting started.

So I piped up, pointed out the obvious, and here we are. :-b

Of course it ignores Ng's responsibility b/c it is already a settled issue and one hardly deserving of outrage. He overstayed a visa and was going to get deported, just as the law indicates he should. That was never a point of criticism by me. The actions of the immigration dept are wholly deserving of outrage b/c they are above and beyond any legitimate legal action in the deportation process. And it's no grand effort to point out the obvious when it's also the irrelevant. In case there's any confusion, it is irrelevant b/c Ng's actions had zero influence on the alleged actions of others taken outside the range of what is acceptable under the deportation process.

Would be like someone setting a bomb in a stadium, then calling it in to the bomb squad. People would crush and trample people (possibly killing said people) during the evacuation. I choose to place the majority of the blame on the person who set the bomb, where as other people would rather shift the majority of the blame to those who did the trampling.

This is a completely faulty analogy. The subsequent trampling is a reasonable expectation of the person planting the bomb. What happened to Ng is far beyond any reasonable expectation. Planting the bomb is intended to have a direct influence on people, creating an environment of terror and the resulting choas. Overstaying a visa does not have a direct influence on the events following Ng's entry into the deportation process.
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby RugbyD » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:13 pm

Madison wrote:Re-reading this and thinking about it all, a question:

Those of you who blame the Immigration Department, are you doing it because they made the "biggest" mistake? :-? I agree that possibly being responsible for someone's death is a much larger infraction than simply renewing someone's work visa. I don't disagree with that at all.

But here's something to ponder and maybe you'll get why I view it the way I do...

Let's say you're driving along the road and get hit by a drunk driver. You didn't know it, but your license had expired. The drunk driver did something "worse" by driving while intoxicated, where as you simply forgot to renew your license. But you do realize that while both of you would face consequences, as far as the courts are concerned, the accident would be written up as your fault, right? (no license means you never should have been on the road to get hit - true story, happened to a friend I used to bowl with).

That's all I'm getting at here. Responsibility for a situation isn't always on who made the "biggest" mistake.

I don't see that as a comparable example. In one case you have apparently willful malfeasance in the extreme perptrated on a captive individual whose care the immigration people are specifically responsible for, after the law had already rendered judgement. In your example there is no specific responsibility of the DD to the other driver, no specific choice to hit the other driver, no process that renders the one driver into a state of dependency on another individual, etc.
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Re: Three Cheers for the US Immigration Dept!

Postby Madison » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:30 pm

RugbyD wrote:The actions of the immigration dept are wholly deserving of outrage b/c they are above and beyond any legitimate legal action in the deportation process.


Provided you believe the story. If memory serves, there was someone on the first page refuting that it went the way the story said (and it wasn't me). And we all know about the sensationalistic media, so fully buying it and being "outraged" while ignoring how the entire thing got started seemed awfully drastic to me.

RugbyD wrote:This is a completely faulty analogy. The subsequent trampling is a reasonable expectation of the person planting the bomb. What happened to Ng is far beyond any reasonable expectation. Planting the bomb is intended to have a direct influence on people, creating an environment of terror and the resulting choas. Overstaying a visa does not have a direct influence on the events following Ng's entry into the deportation process.


True, bad analogy. My bad. !+)

RugbyD wrote:I don't see that as a comparable example. In one case you have apparently willful malfeasance in the extreme perptrated on a captive individual whose care the immigration people are specifically responsible for, after the law had already rendered judgement. In your example there is no specific responsibility of the DD to the other driver, no specific choice to hit the other driver, no process that renders the one driver into a state of dependency on another individual, etc.


Dunno, I actually liked this analogy, but break it all the way down and strip away the story. I'm simply talking about two wrongs, with one being "worse" than the other, yet it's still the lesser "wrongs" responsibility/fault/blame.

I mean I get it as to why people are upset at the immigration department, heck, I'd love to see them all fired and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law (and you guys know me, I mean the FULLEST extent of the law :-D ) if it did in fact go down the way the article claims. However, I just can't look the other way and not acknowledge that Mr. Ng put himself in that position by the choice he made to break the law.

So I acknowledged both sides in my first post, and even predicted the discussion would go this way. Knew no one else would acknowledge Mr. Ng's responsibility, it would only be an argument about what happened after he chose to break the law. Go me for predicting that correctly. ;-7 Haha. :-b ;-)
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