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Exxon's record $11.6 B 3 months

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Re: Exxon's record $11.6 B 3 months

Postby mbuser » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:31 pm

oil isnt the necessity, energy is the necessity. we're the ones who chose to address our energy needs almost exclusively with petroleum. exxon and others were just happy to facilitate
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Re: Exxon's record $11.6 B 3 months

Postby StlSluggers » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:49 pm

Neato Torpedo wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:Are you familiar with the concept of "tragedy of the commons"?

I think you might not be familiar with that term:

"[Tragedy of the commons] states that free access and unrestricted demand for a finite resource ultimately structurally dooms the resource through over-exploitation."

Sigh...rigidly, that may be the definition. I forget the term off my head, but what I'm referring to is the same basic concept. A couple dollars times 300 million people equals a hell of a lot of money that could be going towards struggling sectors of the economy.

You are talking about profit margins. Tragedy of the commons might be used to explain why we would eventually run out of oil. They're not even close to being the same, basic concepts.

Do you really think that $5, $10, or even $50 per household would really turn the economy? Our gov't decided that they had to give at least $600/person in order to "stimulate" the economy. I hardly think that 1/12 (at the most) of that would do anything.

I'm glad to hear you're asking your reps to get off foreign oil and into domestic supplies via whatever method. I agree that our domestic oil (in liquid form) stores are not a long-term solution, but we have more than a year's worth when you factor in west coast supplies. It's more like 3 years, give or take. Still, even a slow feed of that supply would lower prices by a notable amount.
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Re: Exxon's record $11.6 B 3 months

Postby RugbyD » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:50 pm

TennCare rocks!!!!
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Re: Exxon's record $11.6 B 3 months

Postby bleach168 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:42 pm

With current oil prices, I'm for drilling now. My liberal friend tried to convince me that it would be smarter to wait until oil was $200 or even $300 a barrel before drilling. He has a point. I guess that's why U.S. oil companies choose not drill on land that they are already leasing.

Corporations like Exxon will not spend a significant amount of money to find alternatives either. The higher the price of oil goes, the more Exxon profits. But I shouldn't get angry with them for doing what is in their best interest.

The problem is our govt. I don't blame democrats or republicans, I think both parties propose plans that would drastically help, but the way our "checks and balances" govt is set up, we have too much gridlock and nothing gets done. Doing nothing is what got us into the mess we're in.
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Re: Exxon's record $11.6 B 3 months

Postby RugbyD » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:41 pm

bleach168 wrote:With current oil prices, I'm for drilling now. My liberal friend tried to convince me that it would be smarter to wait until oil was $200 or even $300 a barrel before drilling. He has a point. I guess that's why U.S. oil companies choose not drill on land that they are already leasing.

Corporations like Exxon will not spend a significant amount of money to find alternatives either. The higher the price of oil goes, the more Exxon profits. But I shouldn't get angry with them for doing what is in their best interest.

The problem is our govt. I don't blame democrats or republicans, I think both parties propose plans that would drastically help, but the way our "checks and balances" govt is set up, we have too much gridlock and nothing gets done. Doing nothing is what got us into the mess we're in.

Gridlock is great b/c it prevents the govt from fouling up everything they touch. There are plenty of entrepeneurs looking for the next great way to provide energy to the masses. The best solution will rise to the top. Having the govt try to craft a solution will bring the most politically advantageous solution to the top, which is likely to be no solution at all. Corn ethanol couldn't be more perfect of an example.
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Re: Exxon's record $11.6 B 3 months

Postby jfg » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:32 pm

bleach168 wrote:With current oil prices, I'm for drilling now.


How does that help? It takes around 10 years to get oil once they start. So, not only is it a temporary solution it doesn't help anything right now. Maybe it will curb speculation but that will start again.

Also, we shouldn't have started drilling in ANWR 10 years ago or whatever. Again, that is a temporary solution and 10 years ago enviromentally safe equipment wasn't available. What we should have been doing 10 years ago and what a lot of people were rallying for is putting all the resources we had into alternative energy. Anybody who fails to see that even at this point doesn't really get the big picture or has their portfolio lined with oil stocks.

Somebody else said it but the real problem is the weak dollar and the overall horse crap job this administration has done.
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Re: Exxon's record $11.6 B 3 months

Postby bleach168 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:33 pm

RugbyD wrote:
bleach168 wrote:With current oil prices, I'm for drilling now. My liberal friend tried to convince me that it would be smarter to wait until oil was $200 or even $300 a barrel before drilling. He has a point. I guess that's why U.S. oil companies choose not drill on land that they are already leasing.

Corporations like Exxon will not spend a significant amount of money to find alternatives either. The higher the price of oil goes, the more Exxon profits. But I shouldn't get angry with them for doing what is in their best interest.

The problem is our govt. I don't blame democrats or republicans, I think both parties propose plans that would drastically help, but the way our "checks and balances" govt is set up, we have too much gridlock and nothing gets done. Doing nothing is what got us into the mess we're in.

Gridlock is great b/c it prevents the govt from fouling up everything they touch. There are plenty of entrepeneurs looking for the next great way to provide energy to the masses. The best solution will rise to the top. Having the govt try to craft a solution will bring the most politically advantageous solution to the top, which is likely to be no solution at all. Corn ethanol couldn't be more perfect of an example.


Govt doesn't have to craft a solution. Though Brazil did do a great job of it and now they are energy neutral thanks to sugar based ethanol. You would think American ingenuity would figure out how to make corn ethanol more viable, but I guess we're not that smart.

Free markets can be quite unstable. Govt role should be to not interfere too much but try to smooth out the bumps. All govt needed to do, is realize that oil would run out someday and take measures to discourage people from being addicted to cheap gas. Had gas been taxed more (like it is in other countries), we would all be driving more fuel efficient cars and not SUVs that are now worthless. The revenues raised from the tax could then be used to build a decent mass transit system.

You seem very calm about the whole thing assuring us that the free market will solve our problems, but the Europeans have been paying $6+ for gas for many years now and no solution has been found. Now they are paying $10 a gallon. The incentive is certainly there, but the solution is as muddled as ever. I don't think America can survive at $10 a gallon.
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Re: Exxon's record $11.6 B 3 months

Postby bleach168 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:43 pm

jfg wrote:
bleach168 wrote:With current oil prices, I'm for drilling now.


How does that help? It takes around 10 years to get oil once they start. So, not only is it a temporary solution it doesn't help anything right now. Maybe it will curb speculation but that will start again.

Also, we shouldn't have started drilling in ANWR 10 years ago or whatever. Again, that is a temporary solution and 10 years ago enviromentally safe equipment wasn't available. What we should have been doing 10 years ago and what a lot of people were rallying for is putting all the resources we had into alternative energy. Anybody who fails to see that even at this point doesn't really get the big picture or has their portfolio lined with oil stocks.

Somebody else said it but the real problem is the weak dollar and the overall horse crap job this administration has done.


I know drilling isn't the solution. But buying us time to find the solution is a smart move.
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Re: Exxon's record $11.6 B 3 months

Postby Pablo975 » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:14 am

To further an earlier posters theme:

With all this talk of the rich getting richer and all, I will remind everyone of what happens when the rich get too rich and the poor have nothing left to lose: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_revolution (yeah, I know it's not the only reason, but conspicuous consumption by the rich only helps it happen). Who will the rich make money off when they have totally emptied the pockets of their city, county, state, or country? Oh, that's right...then the poor would HAVE to depend on the charity of the rich and/or government to survive....which would make you a SLAVE in every sense of the word. Rich people aren't all bad, poor people aren't all good, but unthinking people ARE bad. Rich unthinking people are horrible since they usually have NO EXCUSE to not be educated and responsible.

The solutions for us 30k a year, couple of kids, middle America, no investments to speak of other than our now deflated homes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_power
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/whateverth ... ixourstuff

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Country_Boy_Can_Survive

With a little knowledge, discipline, a lack of craptastical politicians and hard work, a country boy can survive. My stepdad runs an old Mercedes Turbodiesel on used cooking oil from his friends restaurant and adds about 1-2 gallons of normal diesel to each tank, just to give it a little boost. It just takes work and about $150 worth of Ace Hardware stuff to set up. Holla if you want details.

Course, if the sun dies out we're all dead anyway.
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Re: Exxon's record $11.6 B 3 months

Postby Neato Torpedo » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:25 am

StlSluggers wrote:You are talking about profit margins. Tragedy of the commons might be used to explain why we would eventually run out of oil. They're not even close to being the same, basic concepts.

Do you really think that $5, $10, or even $50 per household would really turn the economy? Our gov't decided that they had to give at least $600/person in order to "stimulate" the economy. I hardly think that 1/12 (at the most) of that would do anything.

I'm glad to hear you're asking your reps to get off foreign oil and into domestic supplies via whatever method. I agree that our domestic oil (in liquid form) stores are not a long-term solution, but we have more than a year's worth when you factor in west coast supplies. It's more like 3 years, give or take. Still, even a slow feed of that supply would lower prices by a notable amount.

Don't get hung up on semantics. Tragedy of the commons or whatever it's called, understand the point. And $5, $10, $50 per household is a laughably low number, unless your car gets 20,000 miles to the gallon.

Let's say gas was a dollar less per gallon. Someone who uses a car full-time fills up just about every week. Each fill saves $14-18 per gallon (assuming average gas tank capacity, I had to look this up :-b ). That gives said consumer anywhere from $728 to $936. More reliable, simpler math: let's say you drive a car with a 16.5 gallon tank capacity 20,000 miles a year. That ends up as using 769 gallons of gasoline, and $769 saved. And that's only with one car, imagine if you had another car that had equal, or even half the use of the primary car. Now imagine if you had to commute to work, you'd be driving, and saving considerably more from what you would have to pay. Imagine you own a truck company whose drivers log about 150,000 miles a year in huge trucks. Every number I've thrown out so far was bigger than most of the economic stimulus checks that were distributed this year. And this kind of stimulus comes every year at no cost to the government.

jfg: great point that I forgot (it's summer, I wasn't prepared to think about anything besides baseball and music) it would take at leats 10 years for any American oil to reach the market. Unless something radical happens in the next few years, the price of gas will continue to skyrocket and the impact of American oil will have even less of an effect.
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