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Is there any chance of this happening?

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Re: Is there any chance of this happening?

Postby mweir145 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:36 am

I also don't believe Rios has lost any power. The talent is still very much there, and I think he's capable of hitting 20 this year. For whatever reason he's had long stretches in his career where he just hits grounders. He always seems to snap out of it, though, and finish with decent numbers in the end. He may never be the elite right fielder that people were hoping for (I was never a huge backer of this sentiment), but as a decent offensive/great defensive player, he's still very valuable to have. Same with Wells, another above average guy out there.

The real problem with the Jays is that they need an actual elite player to bring it all together in the middle of a lineup. Everything else is set. It's why I couldn't believe Godfrey refused to sign Bonds back in March, but obviously we now know something was going on in terms of collusion.
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Re: Is there any chance of this happening?

Postby mweir145 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:38 am

Snakes Gould wrote:well the affinity for prospects is because you get to control them for dirt cheap for the next 6 years. with halladay you're going to have to pay him $20 million a season for the next 6, thus you're $120 million in the hole and kershaw could end up being lincecum or hamels (hypothetical of course).

Oh I understand the concept. But if you're a team that can afford Roy Halladay easily and he wants to stay (who says that he'll cost 20 million by the way, he's taken pay cuts to stay in Toronto before), why would you go for something that isn't a sure thing?
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Re: Is there any chance of this happening?

Postby Snakes Gould » Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:39 am

mweir145 wrote:
Snakes Gould wrote:well the affinity for prospects is because you get to control them for dirt cheap for the next 6 years. with halladay you're going to have to pay him $20 million a season for the next 6, thus you're $120 million in the hole and kershaw could end up being lincecum or hamels (hypothetical of course).

Oh I understand the concept. But if you're a team that can afford Roy Halladay easily and he wants to stay (who says that he'll cost 20 million by the way, he's taken pay cuts to stay in Toronto before), why would you go for something that isn't a sure thing?


trade halladay for kershaw and kemp and then go and sign, say a dan haren (hypothetical), and you essentially pay for haren with the money you saved from halladay and then get a kershaw and kemp for free. sounds good to me

course hes going to get 15-20 mil a season. everyone is/will.
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Re: Is there any chance of this happening?

Postby mweir145 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:46 am

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/stati ... ndings.php

Just take a look at those standings, and tell me how the Jays have really been that worse than Tampa or New York this year.
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Re: Is there any chance of this happening?

Postby mweir145 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:49 am

Snakes Gould wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
Snakes Gould wrote:well the affinity for prospects is because you get to control them for dirt cheap for the next 6 years. with halladay you're going to have to pay him $20 million a season for the next 6, thus you're $120 million in the hole and kershaw could end up being lincecum or hamels (hypothetical of course).

Oh I understand the concept. But if you're a team that can afford Roy Halladay easily and he wants to stay (who says that he'll cost 20 million by the way, he's taken pay cuts to stay in Toronto before), why would you go for something that isn't a sure thing?


trade halladay for kershaw and kemp and then go and sign, say a dan haren (hypothetical), and you essentially pay for haren with the money you saved from halladay and then get a kershaw and kemp for free. sounds good to me.

If only there were Dan Haren types out there to sign. :-D

course hes going to get 15-20 mil a season. everyone is/will.

Halladay signed a 3 year extension for 40 million. Money certainly doesn't appear to be the decision maker for him here.

I mean if he's going to give the team a bargain, why not take it?
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Re: Is there any chance of this happening?

Postby bdrotoronto » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:54 am

mweir145 wrote:I don't understand where this idea comes from that the Jays can't ever make the playoffs. Their 3rd order record is quite good(http://www.baseballprospectus.com/stati ... ndings.php), and that's with significant injuries as well.

...

As for whether JP is a horrid GM...well I've always maintained he's quite average compared to the rest of the league. He just says a lot of stuff without thinking at times (Adam Dunn doesn't like baseball... 8-o ).

The idea that the Jays can't ever make the playoffs probably comes from the fact that they don't ever make the playoffs. And they're never even in the running for it when it matters. Tell me when honestly the last time was the Blue Jays played a meaningful game in September (for them, not the other team) that would have a big impact on them having a shot at the playoffs or not. I can tell you it was before the JP era. And that was a LONG time ago.
The injuries are used too much as an excuse by this team. Other teams get injuries too and still play better. The Red Sox had a ton of injuries in '06, the Yankees have had a ton of injuries both of the last two years. Where have the Jays been to take advantage of this? Nowhere. Instead they've even been passed by the Devil Rays. Actually, funny thing is this team often seems to play better when it's fighting through injuries.. *cough*Wells*cough*

The fact is NO other GM in the league has been around as long as Ricciardi and failed to make the playoffs. The entire JP era is a giant series of lies and excuses for failure, and hyperbole about "the great team JP has put together" that really isn't so great, since every year you can set your clock to the team finishing around 79-86 wins, which doesn't get it done. At some point that kind of team isn't 'underachieving', they just simply aren't good enough. If I wanted to I could easily rattle off about a dozen games from this year alone that the Jays should have won and found a way to lose (i.e. not 'could' have won, should have). Whereas the Jays have only 'stolen' about 1 or 2 games the opposite way. Good teams find a way to win those kinds of games more often than not, bad teams do the opposite. The fact that the Jays "could" have had a better record is irrelevant at this point because they don't (and they never do), honestly a team that had the kind of starting pitching the Jays got in the 1st half should have near a .650-.700 record, yet the Jays are a virtual non-factor in the race and had a losing record until this week.. that is how bad the rest of the roster is.

mweir145 wrote:With a bit better luck this season, they would be right there with New York (only 5 games back of them right now I believe anyway

I don't believe that at all.. I've seen a lot of their games this year, and I don't think it has anything to do with luck at all.. this team just simply isn't good enough. The fact that they've lost so many games in similar fashion is evidence of that.

As for Halladay, I respect him a lot for wanting to stay here, but I honestly am often amazed why a player of his calibre would be satisfied playing on such an ordinary franchise as JP's Blue Jays. It is always just the same sort of thing with this team (which is in fact what Halladay basically said). I think he's definitely the best pitcher in team history, so he'll always be welcome here, but at some point you wonder if he'd get the respect around the league he deserved if he pitched for a team with a clue.
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Re: Is there any chance of this happening?

Postby RedSoxNation04 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:30 am

Halladay signed a 3 year extension for 40 million. Money certainly doesn't appear to be the decision maker for him here.

I mean if he's going to give the team a bargain, why not take it?


Who's to say he will give them another discount after they continue to miss the playoffs and finish 4th or last in the AL East for the next couple years?? Let's be honest here, the Sox and Yanks aren't going anywhere and the Rays are only going to get better. Not looking good for the Jays and if Halladay really wants to play on a contender, it's not going to be in Toronto...
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Re: Is there any chance of this happening?

Postby mweir145 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:30 pm

RedSoxNation04 wrote:
Halladay signed a 3 year extension for 40 million. Money certainly doesn't appear to be the decision maker for him here.

I mean if he's going to give the team a bargain, why not take it?


Who's to say he will give them another discount after they continue to miss the playoffs and finish 4th or last in the AL East for the next couple years??

He's under contract for two more years. And despite the fact that they are 4th right now, I just showed you that they have in reality been one of the better teams in the league this season.
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Re: Is there any chance of this happening?

Postby Zito is God » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:34 pm

Outside of DH and SS, nearly all of their players are above average offensively for their position


This actually made me chuckle. When you say Scott Rolen and Lyle Overbay are guys that put up "above average" numbers offensively we know you're dellusional.

Great argument above me by bdrotoronto by the way. They never make the playoffs, they never have games that are actually important, and hell the Orioles are headed in a much better direction than the Jays and I guarantee the Orioles have a better season as early as next year. Orioles have Adam Jones, Markakis, Wieters, Tillman, Liz, and other prospects as their cornerstones. They are also doing the right thing by (most likely) moving Brian Roberts either during the deadline or in the offseason to get even more prospects. That team has a bunch of young talent now and Chris Ray is coming back as well. Dealing Sherril who has been a top AL closer will net even more talent. For the Jays, they choose to keep this talent that they know simply cannot get them to win by itself, and therefore their record speaks for itself. The team is terrible. Sorry. End of story.
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Re: Is there any chance of this happening?

Postby mweir145 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:37 pm

bdrotoronto wrote:The fact is NO other GM in the league has been around as long as Ricciardi and failed to make the playoffs. The entire JP era is a giant series of lies and excuses for failure, and hyperbole about "the great team JP has put together" that really isn't so great, since every year you can set your clock to the team finishing around 79-86 wins, which doesn't get it done. At some point that kind of team isn't 'underachieving', they just simply aren't good enough. If I wanted to I could easily rattle off about a dozen games from this year alone that the Jays should have won and found a way to lose (i.e. not 'could' have won, should have). Whereas the Jays have only 'stolen' about 1 or 2 games the opposite way. Good teams find a way to win those kinds of games more often than not, bad teams do the opposite. The fact that the Jays "could" have had a better record is irrelevant at this point because they don't (and they never do), honestly a team that had the kind of starting pitching the Jays got in the 1st half should have near a .650-.700 record, yet the Jays are a virtual non-factor in the race and had a losing record until this week.. that is how bad the rest of the roster is.

If the Jays were in any other division in baseball, they probably would have made the playoffs atleast 2 or 3 other times at this point. That's the difference. If you think that not making the playoffs in this division is something that's worthy enough to get fired, that's a fair opinion (I felt that JP should have been fired for saying what he did about Dunn, but that was just me), but I can gurantee it's not going to be an easier task for the next person that takes over.

mweir145 wrote:With a bit better luck this season, they would be right there with New York (only 5 games back of them right now I believe anyway

I don't believe that at all.. I've seen a lot of their games this year, and I don't think it has anything to do with luck at all.. this team just simply isn't good enough. The fact that they've lost so many games in similar fashion is evidence of that.
[/quote]
It has absolutely everything to due with luck. Most things in baseball do. They've allowed less runs than all of the teams in the division, and even wih their terrible offense throughout most of the season have almost scored as many as the Yankees and Rays.
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