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Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox (Merged)

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Re: Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox (Merged)

Postby APAP » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:54 am

Lol
Thanks to soty for this sig
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Re: Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox (Merged)

Postby BronXBombers51 » Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:25 am

RocketsDWM wrote:
mweir145 wrote:I may have missed it, but I don't believe the 24-1 source has been given. I'm becoming skeptical as to whether it even exists.


It has been posted twice in this thread. Look back a little bit. Posted by me a couple of pages back and by Matthias before that.


Where? I asked for it like 10 pages ago and haven't seen it. Apparently no one else has either.
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Re: Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox (Merged)

Postby BronXBombers51 » Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:31 am

bceagles04 wrote:Amen. Very well said. And Yoda, or someone was wondering why Sox brass/Sox fans weren't complaining when we were winning....WOULD YOU?! Sure Manny may have been out of line on many counts, however, in sports, you don't mess with success. This year he clearly took his antics up a notch, and crossed a line. And you act like Sox fans have just recently become annoyed at Manny's behavior. Not true. Do you live in Boston, Yoda? Do you watch all the games on NESN? Doubt it. As such, you really don't have any authority, or right, to make half the claims you are making. Manny has dogged it for as long as I can remember. When he was putting up .325-35-130-100 no one complained because those are monster numbers and we were winning world series. But Manny, at 36 is no where near the hitter he was just 3 short years ago. He hasn't had an OPS as low as his 07 and 08 totals since 1994. He can't catch some of the faster pitchers, and while he plays the Monster expertly, he dogs it in the field, and the basepaths. Yoda, if you take out the Press, FO, and Manny's antics, and look at this from strictly a skill standpoint, the trade is still a reasonable one. We traded an aging, decling superstar who would demand gross amount of money in the offseason, for a younger, presently comparable player who is in the midst of his prime - and also costs about $13 million less. Sure we gave up Hanson and Moss...but who knows what will come of them. Now throw in the fact that Manny causes problems in the clubhouse, dogs it, and just has a terrible attitude in general, and the trade is not only one that needed to be made, but a very good one. Simply put, Manny is getting old, and his skills are rapidly diminishing.


Right...so the Red Sox enabled this to happen.

The Red Sox ignored what Manny was doing because they were winning in the past. Now they aren't and so all the things that Manny's been doing for 15 years are unacceptable? The Red Sox let this happen to themselves. Nobody is saying that Manny is right in what he has done, but the Sox never had a problem with it until they started having some trouble. Manny's been jogging to 1st base and sitting out games of his choosing his entire career. What's different this year? Really nothing. Sure Manny has made a few more comments to the media, but Yoda is right in that a lot of this anonymous sources are said to be coming from inside the Red Sox organization as well. Both parties deserve blame here. Nobody is defending what Manny did, but the Red Sox put themselves in this situation and only painted him as such a bad guy in 2008.
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Re: Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox (Merged)

Postby The Handsome One » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:57 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:Right...so the Red Sox enabled this to happen.

The Red Sox ignored what Manny was doing because they were winning in the past. Now they aren't and so all the things that Manny's been doing for 15 years are unacceptable?


How exactly did the Red Sox ignore what Manny did in the past? They tried to rid themselves of him on at least one occasion, when he was put on waivers after the 2003 season. I am not sure why you are suggesting that they are not winning, either. They are right in the mix (and still ahead of the Yankees, by the way).

BronXBombers51 wrote:The Red Sox let this happen to themselves. Nobody is saying that Manny is right in what he has done, but the Sox never had a problem with it until they started having some trouble. Manny's been jogging to 1st base and sitting out games of his choosing his entire career. What's different this year? Really nothing.


Let's see... this year Manny has started a fight with a teammate in the dugout and shoved 65 year-old club employee to the ground. (Unless that is just some bogus story planted by the Sox enablers at NESN. I am sure the old guy held his own against a professional athlete about half his age). His usual pouting has become physical.

BronXBombers51 wrote:Sure Manny has made a few more comments to the media, but Yoda is right in that a lot of this anonymous sources are said to be coming from inside the Red Sox organization as well. Both parties deserve blame here. Nobody is defending what Manny did, but the Red Sox put themselves in this situation and only painted him as such a bad guy in 2008.


Where else do anonymous sources come from? Is this the first time a team has used leaks to defend itself? Oh my God! The Red Sox wouldn't exercise his option! They are playing hardball with a player who has publicly complained about not wanting to be there! I am a little unclear on what you think you have caught the Sox doing.
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Re: Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox (Merged)

Postby The Handsome One » Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:20 am

Yoda wrote:
Matthias wrote:
Yoda wrote:So that is all you can come up with? 2 trades in the last decade? IMO, this is the worst trade I've seen on paper. We can agree to disagree.

Oh geez. Next you're going to start talking about the Curse of the Mannito.

From Gordon Edes this morning, who has a pretty good finger on the pulse of the team:
Management had taken an informal poll of the club's veteran leaders; what it was hearing was that Francona was in danger of losing the clubhouse if Ramírez was allowed to continue in the same vein, begging off from playing because of injuries teammates privately questioned, obsessing on his contract, playing hard when the mood suited him.

These were not the teammates of Pedro or Tavarez or Millar who all had a good time with Manny (and vice versa). Forget the fans; forget the front office; forget the media; if Manny loses you his teammates, then he has to go.

Incidentally, I can think of another trade off of the top of my head, in the last five years, which was worse: AJ Pierzynski for Liriano, Nathan, and Bonser. Or how about Johan Santana for Carlos (Crazy Eyes) Gomez and two Mets Nalgene bottles?


Those were not pretty but neither is this one. I have never seen any team completely destroy a player's trade value right before shipping him off. Nonetheless a very smart and well run organization like the Sox.

To Red Sox fans, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't discount what he did for the Sox in his 8 years and then blame him for the current losing streak.


Who exactly is doing that? He had a great run, and greatly contributed to two World Series. His antics were often funny and even charming. However, this year he crossed the line on at least two occasions, and it was clear that it was time for him to move on. He destroyed his own trade value by faking injuries and assaulting club employees. What exactly are you trying to catch the Sox and their fans doing? You are coming off as somewhat obsessive about this whole thing.
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Re: Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox (Merged)

Postby RedSoxNation04 » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:21 am

Are we really still talking about this??
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Re: Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox (Merged)

Postby Yoda » Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:30 am

The Handsome One wrote:Who exactly is doing that? He had a great run, and greatly contributed to two World Series. His antics were often funny and even charming. However, this year he crossed the line on at least two occasions, and it was clear that it was time for him to move on. He destroyed his own trade value by faking injuries and assaulting club employees. What exactly are you trying to catch the Sox and their fans doing? You are coming off as somewhat obsessive about this whole thing.


Obsessive? See, nothing but personal attacks from people who won't admit that the FO and media is to blame as well.

I'm done.
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Re: Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox (Merged)

Postby Matthias » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:36 am

bceagles04 wrote:Manny has dogged it for as long as I can remember. When he was putting up .325-35-130-100 no one complained because those are monster numbers and we were winning world series. But Manny, at 36 is no where near the hitter he was just 3 short years ago. He hasn't had an OPS as low as his 07 and 08 totals since 1994. He can't catch some of the faster pitchers, and while he plays the Monster expertly, he dogs it in the field, and the basepaths.

This is this whole viewpoint in a nutshell. Manny has always been a little crazy his whole career... this year he's been a bit wilder... a bit more malicious... but really, he just hasn't been producing to the level that allowed him to get away with his hijinx. If he was hitting .330 with 30HRs I'm sure the Red Sox and Red Sox fans would've found some way to still accept him.
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Re: Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox (Merged)

Postby The Handsome One » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:49 am

Yoda wrote:
The Handsome One wrote:Who exactly is doing that? He had a great run, and greatly contributed to two World Series. His antics were often funny and even charming. However, this year he crossed the line on at least two occasions, and it was clear that it was time for him to move on. He destroyed his own trade value by faking injuries and assaulting club employees. What exactly are you trying to catch the Sox and their fans doing? You are coming off as somewhat obsessive about this whole thing.


Obsessive? See, nothing but personal attacks from people who won't admit that the FO and media is to blame as well.

I'm done.


That was not intended as a personal attack, just an observation. Of course the media blew the story up as much as it could. Isn't that what the media does? Is the NY media responsible every time ARod sneaks off to cheat on his wife? No, of course not. Given the way that Manny was behaving (which was much worse than before in that he was involved in at least two physical altercations with members of the organization), I still do not see what was wrong with the team doing what it needed to do.
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Re: Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox (Merged)

Postby Matthias » Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:15 pm

In a final, "Manny being Manny" moment
Of all the Manny moments in Boston, the last ranks as one of the most confounding. Within an hour after Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein informed Manny Ramírez he had been traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers Thursday, Ramírez's agent, Scott Boras, called the Sox back, according to a source with direct knowledge of the negotiations. If the Sox dropped the option years on his contract - which they had agreed to do if they traded him - Boras said Ramírez would not be a problem the rest of the season.
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