Playing for next year in a keeper - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2015 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Commissioner's Corner

Playing for next year in a keeper

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Playing for next year in a keeper

Postby fantasma » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:58 pm

I'm the commish of a 15 team roto league that keeps 5 players, plus 1 "rookie" keeper (a player who just ran out his rookie eligibility during the season) and 4 minor leaguers (who haven't yet run out their rookie eligibility). At about this time of year, the teams that are out of the race start selling off every useful part of their teams in the current year for high-end or promising keepers (e.g., a recent trade of Milton Bradley, Soria, and Mike Gonzalez for Matt Weiters, Zimmerman, Myers, and Guardado). Other offers can be even more exaggerated.

I don't believe in vetoing unless there's collusion involved (each team has the right to make it's own decisions). But as a result of these deals, the current year's league ends up getting hugely distorted, because only a handful of teams are really playing for this year--and because the top teams end up getting rated relative to all of these depleted squads.

Surely this is common in keeper leagues. Does anyone know a good way to handle it? How can I allow people free reign to rebuild for next year, while also not compromising this year's race? I'd greatly appreciate any advice.

Thanks!
fantasma
College Coach
College Coach


Posts: 195
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Playing for next year in a keeper

Postby Matthias » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:14 pm

Well, the first obvious answer is to cut down on the # of keepers. If people can only hold onto so much, then they'll quickly reach a point at which they don't have enough incentive to do the this year for next year swap.

The second way to do would be to do fiscal rewards/punishments. We have a small prize for most improved, for total roto points, from ASB to end of the season. Other ways to do it would be to do a small penalty, say $0.30 a point, for every point under the mean someone is. So if 8th place has 80 pts, and they're at 30, it costs them $15. You can increase/decrease the amount depending on the wealth of your league, but the idea would be not enough to make it really bleed, but enough that someone is ticked about it. I'd say a good rule a thumb would be if they really tanked on the season they've doubled up their entry fee.

A third way to do it would be to have an earlier trade deadline for the people in the bottom 3 or 4 spots. Say the general trade deadline August 15th, but if you're in the bottom 3, you can't trade after the ASB. It would mean people would have to sell out with a good chunk of the season left.

A fourth way to do it would be to put in a rule that, of your keepers, a maximum of 1 - 3 (whatever you decide) can come via trades in the last year. So basically, if you have 10 total keepers, at least 7 of them have to come from your own draft, previous year's keepers, or the WW. This would put a premium on the draft and make people really cagey about trading for next year.

A last resort would be to let it be known that anyone who sincerely gives up on their team with over a month remaining runs the risk of not getting invited back next year. You could say that you expect everyone to keep the league competitive through the entire year.

Now, I'm not necessarily endorsing any of these ideas... you'd have to figure out what would work given the character of your league and everyone else involved. But they're ideas to kick around. I do kind of like #4, though.
0-3 to 4-3. Worst choke in the history of baseball. Enough said.
Matthias
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 4860
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Playing for next year in a keeper

Postby Bobbleheadrusty » Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:58 am

Matthias wrote:Well, the first obvious answer is to cut down on the # of keepers. If people can only hold onto so much, then they'll quickly reach a point at which they don't have enough incentive to do the this year for next year swap.

The second way to do would be to do fiscal rewards/punishments. We have a small prize for most improved, for total roto points, from ASB to end of the season. Other ways to do it would be to do a small penalty, say $0.30 a point, for every point under the mean someone is. So if 8th place has 80 pts, and they're at 30, it costs them $15. You can increase/decrease the amount depending on the wealth of your league, but the idea would be not enough to make it really bleed, but enough that someone is ticked about it. I'd say a good rule a thumb would be if they really tanked on the season they've doubled up their entry fee.

A third way to do it would be to have an earlier trade deadline for the people in the bottom 3 or 4 spots. Say the general trade deadline August 15th, but if you're in the bottom 3, you can't trade after the ASB. It would mean people would have to sell out with a good chunk of the season left.

A fourth way to do it would be to put in a rule that, of your keepers, a maximum of 1 - 3 (whatever you decide) can come via trades in the last year. So basically, if you have 10 total keepers, at least 7 of them have to come from your own draft, previous year's keepers, or the WW. This would put a premium on the draft and make people really cagey about trading for next year.

A last resort would be to let it be known that anyone who sincerely gives up on their team with over a month remaining runs the risk of not getting invited back next year. You could say that you expect everyone to keep the league competitive through the entire year.

Now, I'm not necessarily endorsing any of these ideas... you'd have to figure out what would work given the character of your league and everyone else involved. But they're ideas to kick around. I do kind of like #4, though.



Well, toss out the second half 2 and 3. You can't change the cost based on performance, since that completely screws the team with injuries and will cost you players in future years. No one will pay more then other people to keep playing in a league. You can't put in special rules for the people on the bottom either, you can't run a league that way.

As to 5, you can threaten to kick people out, but if you are playing with friends its just bad form and not worth it.

4 is interesting, but again I think it will be impossible to implement. A team may well trade for multiple keeper players during the season without it being a dump trade. It puts too much of a premium on the draft and kills a lot of the fun of the league, since it would neuter need for need trades.

As to #1, that would probably limit the deals somewhat, but it would also change the character of your league.




My suggestions:
1. Losers bracket. OBviously easier in a H2H league, but doable in Roto. Make it so the next years draft is done to reward teams that dont get the payoff but finish well. If you have a trade deadline say that the team that scores the most from that date on gets the top draft pick the following year (of the teams that dont win cash). You can also give a nominal cash prize to the team that gains the most points over the second half.

2. Give it time. Over the years my one keeper has definitely seen dump trades trickle to a crawl. As people noticed that they gave up all stars for trash the previous season (I got Ryan Howard for pennies on the dollar) people stopped being so generous

3. Category rewards. Ive never done this, but heard of it being done (primarily in dynasty leagues). Pay a nominal amount (say, 2% of prize pool) to the winner of each category. You suddenly will see less severe dumps (and more activity) because people will try to focus on one category to win that prize, so someone at the bottom overall may be in the top 2 in steals and try to win that. It skews the league somewhat toward counting cats. (I dont like this idea at all)

4. Deal with it. The whole point of keeper leagues is to keep people interested all year because they can improve their team the next year through dump deals. As long as you don't see collusion Im not sure why you would care if half the teams are raiding the other half.
Bobbleheadrusty
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 410
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Playing for next year in a keeper

Postby Matthias » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:40 am

Bobbleheadrusty wrote:My suggestions:
1. Losers bracket. OBviously easier in a H2H league, but doable in Roto. Make it so the next years draft is done to reward teams that dont get the payoff but finish well. If you have a trade deadline say that the team that scores the most from that date on gets the top draft pick the following year (of the teams that dont win cash). You can also give a nominal cash prize to the team that gains the most points over the second half.

2. Give it time. Over the years my one keeper has definitely seen dump trades trickle to a crawl. As people noticed that they gave up all stars for trash the previous season (I got Ryan Howard for pennies on the dollar) people stopped being so generous

3. Category rewards. Ive never done this, but heard of it being done (primarily in dynasty leagues). Pay a nominal amount (say, 2% of prize pool) to the winner of each category. You suddenly will see less severe dumps (and more activity) because people will try to focus on one category to win that prize, so someone at the bottom overall may be in the top 2 in steals and try to win that. It skews the league somewhat toward counting cats. (I dont like this idea at all)

4. Deal with it. The whole point of keeper leagues is to keep people interested all year because they can improve their team the next year through dump deals. As long as you don't see collusion Im not sure why you would care if half the teams are raiding the other half.

So, in a nutshell, Bobbleheadrusty suggests:
1. Losers bracket or my second suggestion which he already tossed out;
2. Do nothing;
3. Some idea which he really doesn't like; and
4. Do nothing.

I think he has a preference. :-b

FWIW, though, I don't see a real difference between someone winning the league and winning an extra $800 that nobody else does and someone doing very poorly in the league and paying an extra $50. They're both penalizing the guy who did poorly; the extra money is just more apparent. And the differential trade deadline idea I had isn't mine, really; I've seen other people around here report that they use it. I don't think it's a great solution, but it's been done.
Matthias
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 4860
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Playing for next year in a keeper

Postby Bobbleheadrusty » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:34 am

Wow, nice twisting my words. I said toss out the second half of your second suggestion, not the whole thing.

And there is a difference between a bigger price pool for the winner and a larger pay-in the following year for an individual. I think you run the risk of losing people if suddenly they have to pay more then other people to get into the game. Not that most of us play to get rich, but I would be hesitant to join a league in which I had to pay more then others to enter, as would most other people. Especially in a keeper where those teams are gonna be the worst ones from the year before. You run the risk (I think significant) that you turn over the bottom of your league every year.
Bobbleheadrusty
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 410
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Playing for next year in a keeper

Postby Matthias » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:07 am

Bobbleheadrusty wrote:Wow, nice twisting my words. I said toss out the second half of your second suggestion, not the whole thing.

You were just unclear then.

Bobbleheadrusty wrote:And there is a difference between a bigger price pool for the winner and a larger pay-in the following year for an individual. I think you run the risk of losing people if suddenly they have to pay more then other people to get into the game. Not that most of us play to get rich, but I would be hesitant to join a league in which I had to pay more then others to enter, as would most other people. Especially in a keeper where those teams are gonna be the worst ones from the year before. You run the risk (I think significant) that you turn over the bottom of your league every year.

I'm not talking about entry fees of 2009 be based upon 2008 results; I'm talking at the end of 2008 you would assess who the bottom-draggers are and assess a penalty at the end of 2008. And then that money would get poured into the prize pool for that year. I just mentioned the entry fee as a reasonable maximum if you were trying to figure out how much to charge per roto point. If your entry fee is $20 you would obviously want to have your penalty be much lower than if your entry fee was $500.
0-3 to 4-3. Worst choke in the history of baseball. Enough said.
Matthias
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 4860
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Playing for next year in a keeper

Postby Bobbleheadrusty » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:35 am

Matthias wrote:
Bobbleheadrusty wrote:Wow, nice twisting my words. I said toss out the second half of your second suggestion, not the whole thing.

You were just unclear then.

Bobbleheadrusty wrote:And there is a difference between a bigger price pool for the winner and a larger pay-in the following year for an individual. I think you run the risk of losing people if suddenly they have to pay more then other people to get into the game. Not that most of us play to get rich, but I would be hesitant to join a league in which I had to pay more then others to enter, as would most other people. Especially in a keeper where those teams are gonna be the worst ones from the year before. You run the risk (I think significant) that you turn over the bottom of your league every year.

I'm not talking about entry fees of 2009 be based upon 2008 results; I'm talking at the end of 2008 you would assess who the bottom-draggers are and assess a penalty at the end of 2008. And then that money would get poured into the prize pool for that year. I just mentioned the entry fee as a reasonable maximum if you were trying to figure out how much to charge per roto point. If your entry fee is $20 you would obviously want to have your penalty be much lower than if your entry fee was $500.


So you are gonna demand money from people at the end of an unsuccessful season? That will go over well. Do you play with people who like you?
Bobbleheadrusty
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 410
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Playing for next year in a keeper

Postby Matthias » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:26 pm

Bobbleheadrusty wrote:So you are gonna demand money from people at the end of an unsuccessful season? That will go over well. Do you play with people who like you?

Sure. You've never heard of leagues that have fees for drops/adds? Any of those you'd have to be collecting money from people who didn't have a good year. I've also heard of football leagues where each week's matchup is a forced bet for a certain amount, say $10. So at the end of the season you collect $10 times your net wins and if you had a bad year, you pay $10 times your net losses. Anything can be friendly as long as it's all known going in... and the OP asked for ways to keep people from doing a fire sale. I view this as one option, not necessarily the best, not necessarily what I would do, but it's certainly one mechanism.

Is all of this stuff really out of the realm of your imagining or are you just being a contrarian?
0-3 to 4-3. Worst choke in the history of baseball. Enough said.
Matthias
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 4860
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Playing for next year in a keeper

Postby fantasma » Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:21 pm

Thanks for the ideas you two (back-and-forthing aside). As y'all noted... none of the solutions is great, but it's good to get some ideas as I think about this. I feel like there must be an elegant solution here somewhere...
fantasma
College Coach
College Coach


Posts: 195
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Playing for next year in a keeper

Postby noseeum » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:55 pm

I don't even buy the "compromising this year's race" line. That's how keeper leagues work. It's the same as the Yankees getting Nady and Marte for the stretch. They didn't give up any major league talent and they've significantly improved their roster. The Pirates got some chips for the future. Win/win.

These trades are an inherent characteristic of keeper leagues. If you don't want them to happen, it's best to just do a re-draft.

The only question is whether the dumping guy is committed to the following season. One simple way is for whoever completes a dump trade to be forced to immediately pay the fee for the following year to show their commitment. I don't like the idea of penalties. The guy's already lost this season. That's penalty enough. But it makes sense that he demonstrate he's committed.

We don't have things setup this way, but I could see giving the first pick in the draft to someone other than the last place team as an incentive to push for 5th place or something too.

I prefer carrots over sticks, as you can see.
noseeum
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1697
Joined: 1 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Next

Return to Commissioner's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact