Keeper League Rule Question - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Commissioner's Corner

Keeper League Rule Question

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Keeper League Rule Question

Postby RedSoxNation13 » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:49 am

Here is a question we have regarding our first time keeper league:

We run a 5x5 Mixed Keeper, using a 28 man roster consisting of 14 batters, 9 pitchers and 5 bench players of any kind.

We have a Protection Rule that allows owners to decide to protect anywhere from three to seven players going into next season. For every player that you keep, you have to forfeit your draft pick next season, that is equal to the round that you drafted the player.

For example: If you decide to keep the maximum seven players, and those players were drafted this year in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and 10th rounds, then you would forfeit those seven picks for next season and begin drafting in Round 4, then you would draft in Round 6, Round 8 and then from Round 11 to the end.

If you decided to protect the minimum of THREE players, you would only forfeit those three picks for next season.

But the problem we have deals with players who are picked up as Free Agents, who the owner decides to protect for next season. Our rules state that any Free Agent that is protected would require the forfeiture of the LAST ROUND draft pick next season, which is Round 28.

But there is now a question as to what constitutes a "free agent". Some feel that, in the terms of the protection rules explained above, a free agent means anyone who was NOT DRAFTED in this year's 28 round draft. So they feel that, if any owner wants to protect a player for next season who was NOT drafted in this year's 28 round draft, then all they should have to forfeit is a 28th round pick for next season.

But now there is another side of this. Say Team A drafts a player in the 10th round this year. The player gets hurt, is on IR for much of the year, and then he is finally dropped by the owner. Now let's say Team B picks up this player in the Free Agency draft. Does this player continue to carry the 10th round designation because that is where he was drafted this year, or does this player now become considered a Free Agent for Team B? I guess the question is, if Team B, after picking this player up in Free Agency, decides to protect him for next season, does he have to give up a 10th round pick or a 28th round pick?

Obviously the answer to this question will influence a lot of the strategy owners use the rest of the season. This would mean that some players would mean a lot more to some owners than to others. If I drafted a player in the 10th round who I KNOW I do not want to protect next season, and who I probably do not even want to keep on my roster for the rest of THIS season, do I dare drop the player, knowing that any other owner can pick the player up as a Free Agent, decide to protect him for next season and only have to forfeit a 28th round pick? Or am I safe to drop him, knowing that anyone else who picks the player up will still be bound by his 10th round designation in case they want to protect them for next year?

We looked at several Constitutions of established Keeper Leagues, and this issue was not addressed at all. But when we asked owners who play in established Keeper Leagues, we have a split decision with some claiming that all players who are drafted this year keep their round designations, even if they are picked up by another team, and that only players who were not drafted at all can be protected for a 28th round pick, while some claiming that any player a team picks up in Free Agency is considered a Free Agent and can be protected in exchange for a 28th round pick, whether they were drafted or not.

This is why we need some guidance with this situation.

Thank you.
RedSoxNation13
T-Ball Trainer


Posts: 1
Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Keeper League Rule Question

Postby Matthias » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:08 am

I would say a player retains their keeper round even if they're dropped.

Potential messed-up scenarios if FA = anyone gotten off of the WW, drafted or not:
* Injury situation which you alluded to. There's no reason a premier player should be able to be picked up and kept for a 28th-round draft choice just because they missed this season with a break of some type.
* More nefarious: say two players collude and decide to, "wash" their 1st rounders by dropping them and picking up each other's off of waivers (assuming they have 1st and 2nd waiver priorities). And then they do it not completely stupidly, stagger it a month or so apart, and plead innocent intentions. "I was just sick of keeping David Ortiz on my roster when I had Billy Butler en fuego!!!" Whatever. It can happen.

Potential messed-up scenarios the other way: None that I can think of.

Not that you asked about this advice, but I'm going to offer it, anyways.... institute a keeper escalation policy. The draft pick you give up should increase in round the longer you keep someone: say 1 round the first year you keep them, 3 more rounds the next year, and 5 more rounds each year after that. You don't want someone to be keeping Jay Bruce, say, for a 28th-rounder from now until 2015.
0-3 to 4-3. Worst choke in the history of baseball. Enough said.
Matthias
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 4860
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Keeper League Rule Question

Postby kfix19 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:40 pm

I agree with Matthias. The player should retain the round that he was drafted in. I am looking at instituting the same type of Keeper policy - that is the type of advice I was looking for Matthias. I like that the keeper's round value should increase from year to year.

One thing I was thinking about though was to have Free Agent pickups count as something higher than 28th round picks. Being that we all aren't baseball scouts and there are many players out there that we don't know much about going into the draft - I was thinking more around a 20th round or 18th round selection.

If anyone has some League Bilaws on a league like this - it would be appreciated to see it myself.
kfix19
Softball Supervisor
Softball Supervisor


Posts: 44
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Keeper League Rule Question

Postby jmudukes2008 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:43 am

I have to agree with the previous two posts. I think Troy Tulo is a good example of this...I just dropped him two weeks ago and someone else just picked him up. Now, as sad as it was for me to do this being that Tulo was one of my 7 keepers from last year, I did it knowing that if he turned it on and said person decided to keep him for next year, they would have to forfeit their 7th round pick...not their 28th. Bascially, you should have to pay for your mistakes, much like major league baseball owners do!!! Good luck!!!!!!
Image

July 4th, 4:51 pm: Big Pelf is going to be an all out star...Pick him up before someone else does.
jmudukes2008
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar
Cafe Writer
Posts: 558
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Keeper League Rule Question

Postby Bobbleheadrusty » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:42 am

I dont like it. Using Tulo as a great example. Last year he was kept for a 7th round pick. Now you've dropped him cause he has been hurt and stunk. Now I pick him up off the WW and he goes .260 with 5 HRs after he returns. Not a great performance, but I decide that I think he will improve next season so is worth keeping. Why should I have to keep him at the 7th round value? You say that managers should have to pay for their mistakes, but wouldn't I be paying for your mistake in this case?

When Toronto cut Thomas they had to pay off the remainder of his salary. Oakland signed him to a different (lesser) deal and that is what they will pay him,not the unrealistic price that Toronto signed him for.

My suggestion, set all FAs at some lower (but not final) round value. My one (now defunct) league actually did it by quarters. Someone picked up in the first quarter of the season (say an early grab of Quentin) cost a 24th round pick. Someone picked up in the second quarter (say Alexei Ramirez) would be worth a 20th round pick. Someone picked up in the third quarter (Tulo for example) would cost a 16th. Someone picked up in the final quarter of the season (Furcal or Capps maybe this year) would cost a 12th.

Basically it rewarded someone for the longer that someone kept him on their roster and rewarded buying in on unproven players early.
Bobbleheadrusty
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 410
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Keeper League Rule Question

Postby Matthias » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:26 am

Bobbleheadrusty wrote:I dont like it. Using Tulo as a great example. Last year he was kept for a 7th round pick. Now you've dropped him cause he has been hurt and stunk. Now I pick him up off the WW and he goes .260 with 5 HRs after he returns. Not a great performance, but I decide that I think he will improve next season so is worth keeping. Why should I have to keep him at the 7th round value? You say that managers should have to pay for their mistakes, but wouldn't I be paying for your mistake in this case?

A better question is why should this system be set up to protect/assist an owner who is getting players off of waivers? You got a half-year or more use out of a guy that cost someone else a high-round draft pick... is it really necessary that you be able to keep him for a price that you think is acceptable as well? Or is it just the case that this year he isn't keeper quality. I don't see any flaw in the system in having Tulo just be an overpriced keeper this off-season and then letting the market revalue him next year.

Bobbleheadrusty wrote:When Toronto cut Thomas they had to pay off the remainder of his salary. Oakland signed him to a different (lesser) deal and that is what they will pay him,not the unrealistic price that Toronto signed him for.

I think there's a distinction between, "waived" and "released" which you're missing on. As far as I can tell, it is true for player who are released to be paid their remaining salary by the terminating team, but a player who is picked off of waivers is still due their pro-rated, negotiated salary. I found a blurb that suggested if Chacon was picked off of waivers, he would still be due his salary; but if that failed, then the Astros were going to release him. And when the Red Sox were making a play for A-Rod they put Manny on irrevocable waivers where he went left unclaimed because it was definitely the case that anyone who took him would be on the hook for his salary. So your analogy to the MLB doesn't quite work (for the argument you're trying to make, anyway).

Also, nothing you've said addresses the potential for abuse of two owners trying to, "wash" each other's keepers, or even one guy trying to help his buddy. And don't say it's unrealistic; there's a thread on this page about someone dropping Adam Dunn. Now, Adam Dunn is no Pujols but if someone was able to keep him for a 27th-round draft choice because they got him off of waivers, he'd be a steal... an absolute steal. Also, as jmudukes pointed out, if the rule you wanted was in place, then he would have been discouraged from dropping Tulo in the first place. So you're encouraging a system whereby owners are less active, so that's also not good.

Now, to the separate question of what round keepers undrafted FAs should be... I also think it should be higher than the last round. The quarter system is an interesting idea if their league wants to do it that way.... otherwise I would set it around Round 16 or so, and put in round escalators.
0-3 to 4-3. Worst choke in the history of baseball. Enough said.
Matthias
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 4860
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Keeper League Rule Question

Postby kfix19 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:51 am

I am going to install this system for next year - Do teams still make trades involving draft picks using this system?

Example - Player A traded for Player B and a 5th round draft pick

Also - if I am switching to this system and teams have already made trades like this, what should I do about them? There is only 1 or 2 so it isn't the biggest problem.
kfix19
Softball Supervisor
Softball Supervisor


Posts: 44
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Keeper League Rule Question

Postby noseeum » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:55 am

Couple of things:
1. Players MUST keep their draft value even when dropped. You don't want to create incentives for keeping dead weight. The emphasis should still be on the current year. If a guy is dragging your team down, you shouldn't have to worry that dropping someone will automatically grant someone else a great keeper. You should just be able to drop them. The general rule is "The draft is the mechanism for establishing cost."
2. I agree the correct definition of "free agent" is any player who was not drafted. This goes along with the general rule above.

Missing details:
1. No change in value? Whoever picked up Braun last year would have him at round 28 in perpetuity. That's a recipe for disaster. You should add at least a 2 round penalty per year. If you don't have a minimum, it should probably be 3 rounds.
2. No round minimum? Round 28 is far too cheap for any keeper. I would say make a minimum somewhere around round 15. If you combine a two round penalty with a 15 round minimum, any free agent or player drafted round 17 or above will cost a round 15. Think about how many years you want a top 10 player to be discounted. If you do round 15 with a 2 round penalty, that will be 8 years. Very long time. 15 and 3 would be 6 years. We do 12 and 2.
3. Tie costs - Sometimes you'll end up with two players that have the same round cost. You need a system for adjusting there. We go up a round for ties and use ESPN's top 300 as of draft day. For example, if you have two guys that cost a round 14, whoever is ranked higher costs you your round 13 and the lower costs 14.
Last edited by noseeum on Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
noseeum
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1697
Joined: 1 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Keeper League Rule Question

Postby Matthias » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:15 am

kfix19 wrote:I am going to install this system for next year - Do teams still make trades involving draft picks using this system?

Example - Player A traded for Player B and a 5th round draft pick

Also - if I am switching to this system and teams have already made trades like this, what should I do about them? There is only 1 or 2 so it isn't the biggest problem.

There's nothing about this system that prohibits trades of draft picks, so if you want to keep that as a feature, you can.

Personally, I really dislike trading draft picks as it lends itself too easily to a, "trade this year for next year" kind of mentality. Now, any system that uses keepers at all is going to stimulate this kind of thinking, but that's why it's important to keep the number of keepers to a minimum (IMHO). Think of it this way: say one guy is really busy at work in 2008 or is getting married this year or whatever... he really doesn't have time for fantasy baseball and by the beginning of May, this is apparent. He's last in the league by a goodly bit. So he decides to punt on the 2008 season and starts trading all of his top picks for draft picks in 2009. Now you've created a situation where someone who doesn't do future trades is playing against some guy in 2008 who has extra high picks (because he took the punter's players) and is playing against someone in 2009 who has extra high picks (because he traded away his players for picks). Obviously, this is a little bit of a stretch, but I think the general point is valid. If you allow too much trading of this year for next year, eventually you'll arrive at a situation where someone has to do it in order to be competitive. And this is why there's limits on the number of keepers that someone can have. If you really, really like trading draft picks, then I would at least suggest that every draft pick someone obtains in a trade has to come out of their keeper limit (so if you can keep 5 players, someone who has 2 draft picks coming to them is limited to 3 keepers).

Any trades already done, though, I would grandfather in as the last exceptions to the rule. If there's only one or two of them it's not that big of a deal.

Hope this helps.
0-3 to 4-3. Worst choke in the history of baseball. Enough said.
Matthias
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 4860
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Keeper League Rule Question

Postby Bobbleheadrusty » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:11 pm

Matthias wrote:
kfix19 wrote:I am going to install this system for next year - Do teams still make trades involving draft picks using this system?

Example - Player A traded for Player B and a 5th round draft pick

Also - if I am switching to this system and teams have already made trades like this, what should I do about them? There is only 1 or 2 so it isn't the biggest problem.

There's nothing about this system that prohibits trades of draft picks, so if you want to keep that as a feature, you can.

Personally, I really dislike trading draft picks as it lends itself too easily to a, "trade this year for next year" kind of mentality. Now, any system that uses keepers at all is going to stimulate this kind of thinking, but that's why it's important to keep the number of keepers to a minimum (IMHO). Think of it this way: say one guy is really busy at work in 2008 or is getting married this year or whatever... he really doesn't have time for fantasy baseball and by the beginning of May, this is apparent. He's last in the league by a goodly bit. So he decides to punt on the 2008 season and starts trading all of his top picks for draft picks in 2009. Now you've created a situation where someone who doesn't do future trades is playing against some guy in 2008 who has extra high picks (because he took the punter's players) and is playing against someone in 2009 who has extra high picks (because he traded away his players for picks). Obviously, this is a little bit of a stretch, but I think the general point is valid. If you allow too much trading of this year for next year, eventually you'll arrive at a situation where someone has to do it in order to be competitive. And this is why there's limits on the number of keepers that someone can have. If you really, really like trading draft picks, then I would at least suggest that every draft pick someone obtains in a trade has to come out of their keeper limit (so if you can keep 5 players, someone who has 2 draft picks coming to them is limited to 3 keepers).

Any trades already done, though, I would grandfather in as the last exceptions to the rule. If there's only one or two of them it's not that big of a deal.

Hope this helps.


I'll actually agree with you on this one for once. We don't let draft picks get traded until the keepers are set since it causes too many problems. (Say you traded away your 3rd and 4th but want to keep someone who would be worth that 4th, would it be fair to say you can't keep him or should we make you use a 2?). Just something we learned the hard way.

Now in my football we allow open trades of draft picks for the next 3 years. In my dynasty we had someone do exactly what you suggested, he was out of it early and traded away two decent players
(not stars) for 2 extra 1st rounders and now has picks 1,3, and 6 (He rebounded late to win the losers tourney).
Bobbleheadrusty
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 410
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Home Cafe: Baseball


Return to Commissioner's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Saturday, Sep. 20
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

LA Dodgers at Chi Cubs
(1:05 pm)
Detroit at Kansas City
(1:05 pm)
Toronto at NY Yankees
(4:05 pm)
Philadelphia at Oakland
(4:05 pm)
Arizona at Colorado
(4:10 pm)
Boston at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
Milwaukee at Pittsburgh
(7:05 pm)
Chi White Sox at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Cleveland at Minnesota
(7:10 pm)
Washington at Miami
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Seattle at Houston
(7:10 pm)
NY Mets at Atlanta
(7:10 pm)
Cincinnati at St. Louis
(7:15 pm)
San Francisco at San Diego
(8:40 pm)
Texas at LA Angels
(9:05 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact