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Does this smell like collusion- WHIR

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Re: Does this smell like collusion- WHIR

Postby Matthias » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:37 am

You keep talking about wins as if that's something the pitcher can control. Both Moose and Joba pitch for the same team. So they have the same offensive support and the same bullpen support. So whoever gives up fewer runs should, in the future, have more wins. Just because Joba has been extremely unlucky as far as collecting wins, it's really stupid to keep parading the stat around as a reason that Mussina is better or has more value. But who knows; maybe one of the brothers thinks in the same way that you do. That's why I asked if the OP knew these guys and if he thought they would work out some deal. And he answered, yes, he could see these two brothers not being above some sort of collusive fix.

As far as being emphatic, let's see if I can channel your first post and you tell me....
Unless I am missing something, I COMPLETELY DISAGREE. This does not look like a fair trade AT ALL. Why do you think it is? Because Moose has gotten lucky with some W's the last few weeks? Whatever. Fine. The guy has happened to get a few wins. He has FEWER K's in MORE innings and an ERA ONE RUN HIGHER THAN JOBA's, for #%@(^%(!@#^%'s sake. Furthermore, why is the guy even trading for LaRoche when he has Howard and Loney? HE'S HITTING 40 POINTS BELOW LONEY AND HAS 18 FEWER HR'S THAN HOWARD!!!!!

Perfect example - in my opinion - how people jump to conclusions and assume it's not collusion. NO VETO NO VETO NO VETO Nobody is cheating! Sometimes it's easier to work out a back-room deal with other managers than you know better, perhaps talk on the phone or in person. The agreement to split the winnings often falls apart because the owners can't trust each other not to rat the other one out.

I am curious to see what happened.

Now, was that too, "emphatic"? Or were there maybe other problems with it?
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Re: Does this smell like collusion- WHIR

Postby Motown Blues » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:14 am

:-B

*SIGH*

Well, Matthias...I think it's stupid when you discount statistics completely while making an argument. Prior to Chamberlain's start last night, 8 of those ER came in his previous 16 innings. When you give up 4 ER runs in a start and get pulled after 6 innings, this is not "extremely unlucky." There's a reasonable chance the performance turns into a loss or a no-decision.

All I am saying is that the two offer comparable statistics. On paper, a fair trade.
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Re: Does this smell like collusion- WHIR

Postby Matthias » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:04 am

Well, this is unlucky.

Joba has had 9 starts so far. In no start did he give up more than 3 runs and throwing out his first start where he went 2 1/3 innings, he's given up 0 or 1 runs in 4 starts, 2 earned runs in 2 starts (1 unearned in one of them), and 3 earned runs in starts. For all of that, he has 1 win as a starter.

In Mussina's 13 starts where he has given up 0, 1, or 2, or 3 runs (including unearned), he has gone 10-1. In his six such starts where he has gone at least 5 innings, Joba is 1-1. So given that they play for the same team with the same offense and the same bullpen, yah, I'd say that's unlucky.

And more importantly, I expect the luck to even out so that Joba should be equally as valuable, if not moreso, than Mussina even with just the one category of Wins. So no, Mussina is not equal to Joba.
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Re: Does this smell like collusion- WHIR

Postby Motown Blues » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:41 pm

My point is made by alone prompting you to make these arguments. If this trade was so egregious, then it would not warrant such continued statistical comparison. Now we're just debating which side the scale leans towards, aren't we? I cannot see this as collusion, really. I see no secret activity that fraudulently and excessively gives the third place manager a HUGE benefit. If a trade IS arguable (ie, on some level fair), then a trade should really not be questioned. Honestly, can the guy not make a trade because its his brother, or that they are on opposite sides of the standings...or both? If any of these are the case, I guess relatives should never be in leagues together. In my opinion, if two guys want to exchange these pitchers with some throw-ins, let them. But now were just steering towards a debate on trade vetoes, league voting, etc. etc. and I would rather not go down that route.

But I know from your posts that you have to have the last word, Matthias...so let 'er fly.... :-D
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Re: Does this smell like collusion- WHIR

Postby Matthias » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:54 pm

It doesn't, "warrant such continued statistical comparison." It is not the two players that is prompting this needless re-examination, it is just you. I've never seen in any trade guidelines, "if some random internet guy can yell and scream and get attention and force to be shown wrong then the trade is ok." Your argument is like those Creationists who come up with crazy theories, "disproving" evoluton... and then when some biologist finally takes the time to show why their theories are cracked, they say, "Aha! There's a debate!!! You see! Obviously it's a close question!"

I've already laid out the reasons why I think it should be vetoed; I'm not going to rehash them again. But your comments about relatives not being in a same league together and whatever whatever is obviously off base.
Last edited by Matthias on Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does this smell like collusion- WHIR

Postby Motown Blues » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:47 pm

BRAVO!!

But now I have the last word!!!

You have likened me to a "Republitarian" in previous posts, and now a "Creationist." Ummm...FANTASY football, dude. Remember that. Emphasis on FANTASY. Trade guidelines? What? What are you talking about? The guy asked for an opinion, and I happened to have one you don't like. And if it's evidence that I am denying (as you imply Creationists do) why are YOU denying / ignoring Mussina's stats in this debate?

OK...I am done. I'll be sure to stop making any "little" comments. You try so hard at being condesending, Matthias, it's actually quite amusing. And I don't know sir, but your tone now indicates...that maybe YOU should "chill out, guy." :-b

So while I am done, I am sure you are not. You don't have to do any re-hashing, just make sure you have the last word...otherwise I might. ;-D
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Re: Does this smell like collusion- WHIR

Postby T-fence92 » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:54 pm

Motown is right. THERE IS NO WAY THAT THIS IS COLLUSION.
1.) First of all the league is full of idiots if Mussina was on the WW.
2.) Joba isn't that good, and he is definitely not as good as Mussina.
3.) Weeks sucks, I wouldn't be surprised to see Durham starting by August. AND I AM A DYE HARD BREWER FAN!!!
4.) Ever heard of a UTIL spot? Most leagues have them Plus maybe he wants to trade Howard or Loney, and LaRoche could be a major sleeper.
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Re: Does this smell like collusion- WHIR

Postby Matthias » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:37 am

Motown Blues wrote:You have likened me to a "Republitarian" in previous posts

Actually, you called yourself that.

There's no more need to look at Mussina's stats. Joba's are better and should be better in the future. If you don't get that, you don't get fantasy baseball. If you want to take the time to try to do a comparison and prove me wrong, go ahead.
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Re: Does this smell like collusion- WHIR

Postby noseeum » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:22 pm

Revisiting wins, I wouldn't attribute Mussina's success compared to Joba to luck.

Joba is young. He is not very efficient with his pitches. He will be pulled pretty much the second he hits 100 pitches, whether he's pitching a shutout or gave up 4 runs. No matter how well he pitches, it's going to be difficult for him to rack up wins.

Mussina is efficient and will likely get into the 7th inning on a good percentage of his outings. Yankees also don't mind him going to 120 pitches every once in a while.

Mussina, therefore, has a clear advantage in the wins department.

I don't know if it's collusion or not, but it's a pretty dumb deal. Anytime a player gets traded the day after he's picked up, after spending weeks available on the wire, it warrants some investigation.
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Re: Does this smell like collusion- WHIR

Postby Motown Blues » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:32 pm

Sorry...I couldn't resist NOT being done:

#1 I don't think Mussina was on the waiver wire. If you read the original post it's Chan Ho Park that WAS picked up off the waiver wire. Moose helped the dude get to third place.

#2 I stand corrected, Matthias: you called my ideas "neo-libertarian," otherwise known as Republitarian. Does it really make a difference? Bottom line, you attempted to label me with a media-created, silly, COMPLETELY unrelated political term in a Fantasy Football forum (*cough* pretentious bull@#$!@% *cough*). %-6

OK...now I am done. I swear I am. ;-D
Last edited by Motown Blues on Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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