Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy) - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby deerayfan072 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:46 am

mweir145 wrote:
AquaMan2342 wrote:A couple points etc.

Doesn't it matter WHO some of these pitchers have faced this year?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/stati ... cid=204018

Yes. Rich Harden has faced the toughest batters in baseball this year as a full-time starter with over 50 IP (.782 OPS). Then it goes Matt Garza, Edwin Jackson, Brian Moehler, Justin Duchscherer, Felix Hernandez, Andrew Sonnanstine, Tim Redding, Josh Beckett, Livan Hernandez, Luke Hochevar, Nick Blackburn, Roy Halladay, Kevin Slowey, Scott Kazmir, James Shields, Jesse Litsch, Dave Bush, Gil Meche, Zach Greinke to round out the top 20.

That is 17 AL pitchers (8 AL East, 6 AL Central, 3 AL West) and 3 NL Pitchers (2 NL Central, 1 NL East). Volquez comes in at a .740 OPP OPS which is 9th in the NL.

Based on this...what Rich Harden has done this year (a 2.64 FIP) is extremely impressive.


The entire Rays staff and half of the Jays staff is on that list
Image
deerayfan072
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeWeb Supporter
Posts: 13448
(Past Year: 32)
Joined: 15 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Tampa

Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby Yoda » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:52 am

Are we seriously debating pitchers based on teams faced? Are Harden owners this desperate to make him the best pitcher on the planet? :-D
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby ScrappyDoo » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:57 am

mweir145 wrote:
AquaMan2342 wrote:A couple points etc.

Doesn't it matter WHO some of these pitchers have faced this year?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/stati ... cid=204018

Yes. Rich Harden has faced the toughest batters in baseball this year as a full-time starter with over 50 IP (.782 OPS). Then it goes Matt Garza, Edwin Jackson, Brian Moehler, Justin Duchscherer, Felix Hernandez, Andrew Sonnanstine, Tim Redding, Josh Beckett, Livan Hernandez, Luke Hochevar, Nick Blackburn, Roy Halladay, Kevin Slowey, Scott Kazmir, James Shields, Jesse Litsch, Dave Bush, Gil Meche, Zach Greinke to round out the top 20.

That is 17 AL pitchers (8 AL East, 6 AL Central, 3 AL West) and 3 NL Pitchers (2 NL Central, 1 NL East). Volquez comes in at a .740 OPP OPS which is 9th in the NL.

Based on this...what Rich Harden has done this year (a 2.64 FIP) is extremely impressive.


It does make Rich Harden look even more dominant. Cliff Lee ranked 503rd out of 535 pitchers. That makes his numbers make a little more sense.
ScrappyDoo
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 962
Joined: 5 May 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby AussieDodger » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:24 am

Yoda wrote:Are we seriously debating pitchers based on teams faced? Are Harden owners this desperate to make him the best pitcher on the planet? :-D


Get with the program.

We're also going for a Barack/Harden ticket in '08, get on it. ;-D
Image
AussieDodger
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterEagle Eye
Posts: 11357
(Past Year: 19)
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: What do you mean, Flash Gordon approaching?

Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby Yoda » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:28 am

AussieDodger wrote:
Yoda wrote:Are we seriously debating pitchers based on teams faced? Are Harden owners this desperate to make him the best pitcher on the planet? :-D


Get with the program.

We're also going for a Barack/Harden ticket in '08, get on it. ;-D


If you have to lay out 'what if' scenarios like health and facing weaker competition then clearly he is not 'the' best pitcher.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby AussieDodger » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:35 am

Yoda wrote:
AussieDodger wrote:
Yoda wrote:Are we seriously debating pitchers based on teams faced? Are Harden owners this desperate to make him the best pitcher on the planet? :-D


Get with the program.

We're also going for a Barack/Harden ticket in '08, get on it. ;-D


If you have to lay out 'what if' scenarios like health and facing weaker competition then clearly he is not 'the' best pitcher.


Ron Shandler wrote:Chronically injured players never suddenly get healthy


;-D
Image
AussieDodger
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterEagle Eye
Posts: 11357
(Past Year: 19)
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: What do you mean, Flash Gordon approaching?

Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby deerayfan072 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:46 am

Yoda wrote:
AussieDodger wrote:
Yoda wrote:Are we seriously debating pitchers based on teams faced? Are Harden owners this desperate to make him the best pitcher on the planet? :-D


Get with the program.

We're also going for a Barack/Harden ticket in '08, get on it. ;-D


If you have to lay out 'what if' scenarios like health and facing weaker competition then clearly he is not 'the' best pitcher.


I think if you have two pitchers that are close in numbers, but one has faced the toughest competition and the other has faced crap, it should come into play.

IE -- Harden's numbers v. Cliff Lee's numbers
Image
deerayfan072
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeWeb Supporter
Posts: 13448
(Past Year: 32)
Joined: 15 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Tampa

Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby Yoda » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:00 pm

deerayfan072 wrote:I think if you have two pitchers that are close in numbers, but one has faced the toughest competition and the other has faced crap, it should come into play.

IE -- Harden's numbers v. Cliff Lee's numbers


OK but how do you quantify competition in a meaningful way? Team record? Runs scored? OBP? SLG? Or do you just look at the lineup strength? Also, do you account for who is out of the lineup during those starts? What if a team's offense is struggling at the time?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby rjforlife » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:15 pm

Also whos to say who they have faced will change? Lincecum is in the NL West with some horrid offenses. You say he has faced weak competition sure. But that doesnt mean he wont continue to. Same with Lee. Who is to say he wont continue to face crap offenses or good teams with hurt players or people getting the day off or sitting because of him being a lefty? Why cant we just compare the stats at face value and not try to over-analyze?
Goldy is King.
rjforlife
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicResponse TeamCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 7509
(Past Year: 748)
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Vegas Baby

Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby deerayfan072 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:41 pm

Yoda wrote:
deerayfan072 wrote:I think if you have two pitchers that are close in numbers, but one has faced the toughest competition and the other has faced crap, it should come into play.

IE -- Harden's numbers v. Cliff Lee's numbers


OK but how do you quantify competition in a meaningful way? Team record? Runs scored? OBP? SLG? Or do you just look at the lineup strength? Also, do you account for who is out of the lineup during those starts? What if a team's offense is struggling at the time?


That I can't answer, I guess it would up to each person's own feelings towards what is useful. OPS is a pretty telling stat, but not the end all be all. As I said before, I don't think it is the end all be all or even close to that. IMO, if you have guys with close numbers and one has faced great teams and the other is dang near last place, it should be taken into account as part of the entire analysis. I wouldn't say that just because the guy faced "better" lineups and had good numbers it means he is the best, I think you need to take it all in as a whole and make a decision.
Image
deerayfan072
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeWeb Supporter
Posts: 13448
(Past Year: 32)
Joined: 15 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Tampa

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: scarnicease and 10 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Saturday, Aug. 23
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Chi White Sox at NY Yankees
(1:05 pm)
Tampa Bay at Toronto
(1:07 pm)
Detroit at Minnesota
(1:10 pm)
Seattle at Boston
(1:35 pm)
Baltimore at Chi Cubs
(2:20 pm)
San Francisco at Washington
(4:05 pm)
Houston at Cleveland
(7:05 pm)
St. Louis at Philadelphia
(7:05 pm)
Pittsburgh at Milwaukee
(7:10 pm)
Atlanta at Cincinnati
(7:10 pm)
San Diego at Arizona
(8:10 pm)
Miami at Colorado
(8:10 pm)
Detroit at Minnesota
(8:10 pm)
Kansas City at Texas
(8:25 pm)
LA Angels at Oakland
(9:05 pm)
NY Mets at LA Dodgers
(9:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact