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Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

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Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby dryice » Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:10 am

if taking "best" from a keeper fantasy standpoint, like from this point forward, with the commensurate emphasis on k's, then Lincecum. In terms of extrapolated future performance, endurance, strike outs, home ballpark, Lincecum could be the most valuable pitcher (player?) in fantasy baseball. San Francisco doesn't project to be much of an offensive team, but they're a mid-major market, and could attract some hitters eventually. But the main separation point is future health. His delivery, past history portends an extraordinary endurance level foreign to pitchers. Would do whatever had to do to get Linc.
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Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby kcs261 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:33 am

Yoda wrote:
kcs261 wrote:
Yoda wrote:fun fact: kcs261 is related to Cliff Lee :-D


Nah, I just see all this bad advice being given out to people to trade Cliff Lee for a bunch of junk. The overall consensus is that he can't keep it up. I think you are all leading young fantasy baseball players in the wrong direction. The numbers tell me that there is no reason to believe a downturn will happen this season. As to the post about Chris Carpenter being touted highlly, you all forget how highly Cliff Lee was touted in 2005 and going into 2006. He gets hurt and has one bad season in 2007 and you all act like he was never thought of as anything. Your memory is short. You must all have dementia or alzheimers. ;-)


I was just busting your chops. If you see my previous posts on Lee, then you know that I am more optimistic than most. However, there are way too many better pitchers for Lee to be considered as the best pitcher. If he can keep this up for a couple of years then I'll bet people will change there mind.


I'm saying Lee's the best pitcher in baseball right now (June 29, 2008). If you all want to argue years down the line, that's something different. For all I know, there could be major injuries or some other guy that breaks out between now and then. But at this moment in time today, Cliff Lee is pitching better than anybody in baseball. And he's been doing it for 3-months. And he isn't slowing down.
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Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby Yoda » Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:12 pm

kcs261 wrote:I'm saying Lee's the best pitcher in baseball right now (June 29, 2008). If you all want to argue years down the line, that's something different. For all I know, there could be major injuries or some other guy that breaks out between now and then. But at this moment in time today, Cliff Lee is pitching better than anybody in baseball. And he's been doing it for 3-months. And he isn't slowing down.


Well whenever there is a discussion about highly subjective topics like 'who is the best?' then you will see 100 different answers and no one is absolutely right.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
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Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby bigh0rt » Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:33 pm

kcs261 wrote:
Yoda wrote:
kcs261 wrote:Nah, I just see all this bad advice being given out to people to trade Cliff Lee for a bunch of junk. The overall consensus is that he can't keep it up. I think you are all leading young fantasy baseball players in the wrong direction. The numbers tell me that there is no reason to believe a downturn will happen this season. As to the post about Chris Carpenter being touted highlly, you all forget how highly Cliff Lee was touted in 2005 and going into 2006. He gets hurt and has one bad season in 2007 and you all act like he was never thought of as anything. Your memory is short. You must all have dementia or alzheimers. ;-)


I was just busting your chops. If you see my previous posts on Lee, then you know that I am more optimistic than most. However, there are way too many better pitchers for Lee to be considered as the best pitcher. If he can keep this up for a couple of years then I'll bet people will change there mind.


I'm saying Lee's the best pitcher in baseball right now (June 29, 2008). If you all want to argue years down the line, that's something different. For all I know, there could be major injuries or some other guy that breaks out between now and then. But at this moment in time today, Cliff Lee is pitching better than anybody in baseball. And he's been doing it for 3-months. And he isn't slowing down.

This is your opinion. Opinion to the contrary has already been introduced, showing that other pitchers are, in fact, currently pitching better than Cliff Lee. Edinson Volquez, Tim Lincecum, Ben Sheets, Ervin Santana, Joe Saunders can all have arguments made in their favor. Ironically, you assume (aloud) again and again, that anybody who isn't dangling from Cliff Lee's short hairs the way you seem to be is some sort of bitter hater who 'missed out' on getting him, or are being short-sighted, illogical, demented, so on and so forth. This is in reply to some logical reasons why people may be looking to move Cliff Lee for what they deem to be a safer bet (the most glaring be that he's been pitching at this level for 15 starts, and no other stretch in his entire career).

You also never answered my question earlier... do you expect Cliff Lee to finish with a sub-3.00 ERA, sub-1.10 WHIP, and K:BB > 5?
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Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby BruinBlue » Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:42 pm

After watching all of Timmy's start last night, I honestly think he is at the top. His stuff is filthy and it's amazing how much his changeup has improved. If he can learn to keep his pitch count down while still striking guys out, there is no doubt in my mind that he will be regarded as the best pitcher in the league.
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Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby thatguy27 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:00 pm

I don't necessarily think Lackey is the best, but for the past season and a half few have been better. The fact that he has not even been mentioned until now is a testament to just underrated he is.
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Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby AquaMan2342 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:34 pm

A couple points etc.

Doesn't it matter WHO some of these pitchers have faced this year?

I'd say it's pretty difficult to make a case for anybody besides Volquez so far this year. Not only has he put up the numbers, he's done it against top flight competition. He's 7-0 against top-10 run scoring offensive teams (so far) that he's faced this year and pitched well in a no-decision against Boston as well. He's done it in a hitter's park. Is he likely to regress? Obviously to an extent just because he's stranding a lot of runners and walking many as well. Some of those fly balls will leave the yard in Cincinnati too. Volquez SHOULD be the current frontrunner for the NLCY because he's pitched great against great teams.

Lincecum, for one, has only had three starts against "strong" offensive teams (top 10 RS, two against Philly), and one was the loss in Detroit where Marcus Thames owned him. Lincecum also has made ten of his seventeen starts against bottom-10 offenses. He pitches in a pitcher's park and is receiving almost six runs a game, two more than San Fran is averaging. He won't be 18-2 at the end of the year, that much is certainly clear. But he'll definitely continue to reap the benefits of pitching against weak offenses in pitcher's parks, so his numbers could sustain.

A couple posts ago, somebody mentioned that Cliff Lee has never pitched at this level before. It's a correct assumption to an extent, but for a 61 inning stretch in 2005 (around the same time period as now EDIT: by time period I mean pre-ASB) he did post an ERA around 2.6. So yes, in a technical sense he's never pitched at THIS level, but he's had at least one prolonged stretch of great pitching when healthy. He won't continue to pitch this way, but all of his luck statistics pan out, and one can't ignore the increased velocity and movement on his fastball.

I won't even bother covering Joe Saunders, because his ERA will easily be over 4 by the end of the season.
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Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby DbacksRback » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:57 pm

well its gotta be moyer duhhh :-b I think id go with timmy he's filthy
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Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby mweir145 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:07 am

AquaMan2342 wrote:A couple points etc.

Doesn't it matter WHO some of these pitchers have faced this year?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/stati ... cid=204018

Yes. Rich Harden has faced the toughest batters in baseball this year as a full-time starter with over 50 IP (.782 OPS). Then it goes Matt Garza, Edwin Jackson, Brian Moehler, Justin Duchscherer, Felix Hernandez, Andrew Sonnanstine, Tim Redding, Josh Beckett, Livan Hernandez, Luke Hochevar, Nick Blackburn, Roy Halladay, Kevin Slowey, Scott Kazmir, James Shields, Jesse Litsch, Dave Bush, Gil Meche, Zach Greinke to round out the top 20.

That is 17 AL pitchers (8 AL East, 6 AL Central, 3 AL West) and 3 NL Pitchers (2 NL Central, 1 NL East). Volquez comes in at a .740 OPP OPS which is 9th in the NL.

Based on this...what Rich Harden has done this year (a 2.64 FIP) is extremely impressive.
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Re: Any doubt left on the best pitcher in MLB? (when healthy)

Postby casem2k2 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:43 am

uhhhhhh........Danny Haren is nasty
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