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Shilling done for year and probably career

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Re: Shilling done for year and probably career

Postby Yoda » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:00 pm

Smoltz >>> Schilling.

Schilling's accomplishments have more to do with his team's success (mostly post season) than his own personal accomplishments. He is the Red Sox version of Derek Jeter.
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Re: Shilling done for year and probably career

Postby decoy562 » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:01 pm

jake_harv88 wrote:
J35J wrote:
decoy562 wrote:Even though I'm a homer here, Smoltz deserves to be in, and Schilling doesn't. Their stats are similar, but Smoltz has 154 saves on top of that.


I might be the only one, but I hate the arguement of....well Smoltz has 150 saves to go with it. Ummm so? That just means he wasn't good enough or healthy enough to be a starter during that time frame. Stick any HOF type of pitcher, or close to a HOF type pitcher, and he will more than likely be able to put up 150 plus saves and be dominate out of the pen. I don't consider that a plus on his record personally, its actually a step down, IMHO!

Anyway, I'm a little more picky with my HOF votes. I don't think i would vote Schilling or Smoltz in personally.


I agree that saying smoltz has 150 saves isn't a good argument. A better argument would be that Schilling and Smoltz put up similar wins/ERA/WHIP/K numbers yet Smoltz spent 3+ years meddling around in relief. Would that be fair to say?


Yes, I would agree to that.
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Re: Shilling done for year and probably career

Postby Yanks_Baby » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:04 pm

Yoda wrote:Smoltz >>> Schilling.

Schilling's accomplishments have more to do with his team's success (mostly post season) than his own personal accomplishments. He is the Red Sox version of Derek Jeter.

ya know....besides Jeter's 200 career homers, 1000 career RBIs, encroachment on 3000 hits, gold gloves, and amazing clutch hits... ALL of Jeters accomplishments are team successes huh?

Oh, and don't forget the Flip, and The Dive.

And J35J, how would you not vote Smoltz in? he is one of the best pure pitchers of our time. No other pitcher could seamlessly transfer from a dominant starter, to a dominant closer, and back to a dominant starter. We all know how good he was as a starter, and add to thsat he won a cy young as a closer, and had record numbers in saves...

It's rediculous nowadays that if a pitcher doesn't have 300 wins you don't think they should get in. Smoltz should be a first ballot hall of famer, much less a HoFer. He's one of the best examples of what pitching really is all about.
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Re: Shilling done for year and probably career

Postby Yoda » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:11 pm

Yanks_Baby wrote:ya know....besides Jeter's 200 career homers, 1000 career RBIs, encroachment on 3000 hits, gold gloves, and amazing clutch hits... ALL of Jeters accomplishments are team successes huh?

Oh, and don't forget the Flip, and The Dive.


You think those offensive numbers are that impressive in this era? LOL
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Re: Shilling done for year and probably career

Postby Yanks_Baby » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:12 pm

Yoda wrote:
Yanks_Baby wrote:ya know....besides Jeter's 200 career homers, 1000 career RBIs, encroachment on 3000 hits, gold gloves, and amazing clutch hits... ALL of Jeters accomplishments are team successes huh?

Oh, and don't forget the Flip, and The Dive.


You think those offensive numbers are that impressive in this era? LOL

The 3000 hits, huge career BA, all those stats, AND the rings are impressive. The rings alone aren't. Jeter is a first ballot hall of fame, possibly even unanimously voted in, and i would be willnig to be on that.
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Re: Shilling done for year and probably career

Postby Yoda » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:20 pm

Yanks_Baby wrote:
The 3000 hits, huge career BA, all those stats, AND the rings are impressive. The rings alone aren't. Jeter is a first ballot hall of fame, possibly even unanimously voted in, and i would be willnig to be on that.


Rings = Team. You run out of things to be impressed about Jeter without those rings. Same thing applies to Schilling. They are both highly publicized and popular athletes on winning teams. Of course they'll get voted in Captain Obvious.
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Re: Shilling done for year and probably career

Postby Yanks_Baby » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:48 pm

Yoda wrote:
Yanks_Baby wrote:
The 3000 hits, huge career BA, all those stats, AND the rings are impressive. The rings alone aren't. Jeter is a first ballot hall of fame, possibly even unanimously voted in, and i would be willnig to be on that.


Rings = Team. You run out of things to be impressed about Jeter without those rings. Same thing applies to Schilling. They are both highly publicized and popular athletes on winning teams. Of course they'll get voted in Captain Obvious.

That's not true thought. 3,000 hits is a huge accomplishment for a atter. And then when you add to the 3000 hits the 200+ homers and 1000+ rbis, which alone aren't impressive, but with 3000 hits, he has an impressive career as a hitter, without considering the rings. The rings are just gravy.
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Re: Shilling done for year and probably career

Postby J35J » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:03 pm

Yanks_Baby wrote:And J35J, how would you not vote Smoltz in? he is one of the best pure pitchers of our time. No other pitcher could seamlessly transfer from a dominant starter, to a dominant closer, and back to a dominant starter. We all know how good he was as a starter, and add to thsat he won a cy young as a closer, and had record numbers in saves...

It's rediculous nowadays that if a pitcher doesn't have 300 wins you don't think they should get in. Smoltz should be a first ballot hall of famer, much less a HoFer. He's one of the best examples of what pitching really is all about.


I don't think I ever mentioned 300 wins as a benchmark....I'm leaning more towards 250-260 these days.

Smoltz is at 210 which is solid
Only 1 Cy Young
Only 1 20 win season and only 3 seasons over 15wins
No ERA titles (2 4th place finishes)
No ERA+ titles (only 1 top 5 finish)

I like Smoltz, I like him better than Schilling but I'm not sure I could put him in the Hall personally. He only had 1 dominate year as a starter and if you mix in alot of good years over a 20 year career then you have Smoltz. He's borderline for me, same as Tavish, and if I think a player is borderline I then have to say no.

...you really don't think top end SPers could go to the pen and dominate and come back to the rotation, as long as they still had their stuff, and pitch as well as they ever had before? I think most could.
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