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CHart, no longer leadoff

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Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby Scooter1027 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:29 pm

noseeum wrote:
Yoda wrote:So he hit for more power and is much more aggressive on the base paths when leading off. He already hit 3 HRs in 5 G in the leadoff spot this year before Yost pushed him down the lineup again. Also consider that Yost is effectively giving more plate appearances to a far inferior hitter in Craig Counsell which makes absolutely zero sense.

Oh well. Maybe I'm just crazy but Yost continues to make dumbass moves time after time.


Yoda alludes to it here. The problem is not that Hart should be hitting first instead of fifth. It's that the guys he puts at 1 or 2 this year instead of Hart have no excuse being near the top of the lineup. Sure, Hart might be an ideal number 5, but Counsel is a TERRIBLE 1. So if getting Counsel out of there means Hart has to leadoff than so be it. Get Hart in there. In the beginning of the year when was still out he had Tony Gwynn Jr in the 2 spot. That's just stupid. Counsel and Hardy should not be at the top of a lineup. If Weeks and Cameron are available, putting Hart at 5 is fine. If one of them is not, you have to make adjustments and move Hart up there. This is just elementary. My uncle would have done this in little league.


I understand your argument, it's reasonable. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it sound. And even though Counsell is by and large not a very good player, he does have a higher career OBP than Hart, the most important skill for a leadoff hitter in my opinion. I think that if Weeks was going to be out for a long period of time, Hart would probably be leading off. I guess, in the end, I don't think Yost needs to be bashed for this decision, it's not that unreasonable. He has made plenty of unreasonable, bashable decisions. And we're 11-5 this month, and swept a series with Counsell leading off, so I can't complain too much :-b
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Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby Yoda » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:06 am

Scooter1027 wrote:
Yoda wrote:Your numbers are not showing ABs:
1st - 260 AB
5th - 311 AB

So he hit for more power and is much more aggressive on the base paths when leading off. He already hit 3 HRs in 5 G in the leadoff spot this year before Yost pushed him down the lineup again. Also consider that Yost is effectively giving more plate appearances to a far inferior hitter in Craig Counsell which makes absolutely zero sense.

Oh well. Maybe I'm just crazy but Yost continues to make dumbass moves time after time.


My numbers showed PA:

Hitting 1st (336 PA) -- .269/.316/.534 (.850 OPS), 20 HR, 47 RBI, 14 SB.
Hitting 5th (384 PA) -- .302/.355/.535 (.890 OPS), 15 HR, 60 RBI, 11 SB.


And while he did hit 3 HR leading off, he also was only OBPing .208. Granted, very small sample. I do agree with you about Counsell, who should get as few ABs as possible. I guess the only logic for me behind Hart leading off would be that we just don't have anyone better. I think when Weeks is playing like he can (witness the last couple months of '07), he's the best leadoff hitter we have. Obviously, he's hurt now, so I don't know what can be done. I think the reason you and I are even having this debate is because Hart is such a multi-talented player -- one can reasonably argue that he should be a leadoff type guy, or hit in a run-producing spot.

Anyway, of all the stupid things Yost has done this year, hitting Hart 5th isn't one of them, to me anyway.


Right so with 50 less AB/PA, he has 5 more HR and 3 more SBs. To me at least, this shows that he is more aggressive as a leadoff hitter.

I guess my beef with Yost is not based on Hart not leading off but more based on every other decision leading up to it. Why did he slot him into leadoff in the first place anyway then? Why not just leave him in the 5th hole permanently?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
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Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby Cyclone177 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:44 pm

With all these managers getting fired, I just keep hoping and praying that Ned Yost is the next headline. The guy is a joke.
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Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby Scooter1027 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:54 pm

Cyclone177 wrote:With all these managers getting fired, I just keep hoping and praying that Ned Yost is the next headline. The guy is a joke.


Well, a joke's a little strong. I don't like him a whole lot, especially his bullpen management, but I wouldn't call him a joke. The players seem to like him, he's loyal, at times to a fault. And although I think we could do better than Nedly, since he and Doug Melvin took over this franchise it has gone from a total joke to a contender, and a team just a couple games out of the wildcard despite significant missed time for several key players (Weeks, Gallardo, Riske, Cameron, Capuano, and to a lesser extent, Hardy). So I highly, highly doubt he'll be canned any time soon. If the Brewers tail off by season's end and finish any significant distance short of a playoff berth, I think that might finally be the end of Ned.
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Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby Cyclone177 » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:12 pm

Possibly too strongly worded. Possibly. But man, with all that talent, this team should be better. It's not like Ned Yost is the guy out there getting the young talent. He just tries to manage it once they are signed. I don't know, I guess after last year, I expected this offense to be EXPLOSIVE, not just explosive. If that makes sense.

Looks like they are heating up.
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