CHart, no longer leadoff - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

CHart, no longer leadoff

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby Yoda » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:35 pm

Yanks_Baby wrote:
Yoda wrote:Agreed. I don't think any manager likes a pitcher who is averaging 5 BB per start.

Before that he consistently messed with his mind. He would tell him he's not starting and being skipped, then 15 minutes before game time tell him to start warmnigup. He moved him to the end of the rotation. Constantly skipped starts. He tried to crack him, and when he finally did, he sent him down to the minors.


Wrong. His control problem started in Spring Training when he walked 14 in 10.2 IP. Hill is pulling a Rick Ankiel and it has nothing to do with Pinella.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby gatorgreenwell » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:37 pm

urbanbreez wrote:I think it's pretty impossible to say something like Yost doesn't like Hart. How can you possibly know that? It could just be that he's a bad manager, nothing personal.


Or it could be personal AND Yost could be a bad manager.
gatorgreenwell
College Coach
College Coach


Posts: 270
Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby urbanbreez » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:09 pm

Could be personal, I guess, but I haven't seen any evidence to support that theroy. On the other hand, I can point to quite a few things as examples of his poor magagement skills.
urbanbreez
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
CafeholicLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 3200
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Los Angeles. U Jelly?

Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby Scooter1027 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:35 pm

Wow, just all kinds of crazy claims in this thread. It's "personal"? He doesn't like him? Why, because he wants Hart and his big time average with RISP hitting behind Braun/Fielder? Look, I'm not a Yost fan, at all. But I applaud this decision. Hart's just not an ideal leadoff hitter. He only has 13 walks and a .329 OBP. Meanwhile, despite missing time injured, Weeks has 30 walks, 10 HBPs, and an OBP 115 points better than his BA. Hart has done well hitting 5th all season, is our best hitter with RISP, and needs to be hitting 5th so teams have to be honest with Fielder. I'm glad Yost's done with the Hart leading off business. He hit better 5th than 1st last year, and he is this year too (.208 AVG, .208 OBP leading off in '08).

Also, Prince Fielder hitting "horribly"? I know he hasn't lived up to expectations quite yet, but I wouldn't call .285/.370+, with 13 HR and 36 RBI "horrible".
Scooter1027
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Cafeholic
Posts: 1124
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby Yoda » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:50 pm

Scooter1027 wrote:Wow, just all kinds of crazy claims in this thread. It's "personal"? He doesn't like him? Why, because he wants Hart and his big time average with RISP hitting behind Braun/Fielder? Look, I'm not a Yost fan, at all. But I applaud this decision. Hart's just not an ideal leadoff hitter. He only has 13 walks and a .329 OBP. Meanwhile, despite missing time injured, Weeks has 30 walks, 10 HBPs, and an OBP 115 points better than his BA. Hart has done well hitting 5th all season, is our best hitter with RISP, and needs to be hitting 5th so teams have to be honest with Fielder. I'm glad Yost's done with the Hart leading off business. He hit better 5th than 1st last year, and he is this year too (.208 AVG, .208 OBP leading off in '08).

Also, Prince Fielder hitting "horribly"? I know he hasn't lived up to expectations quite yet, but I wouldn't call .285/.370+, with 13 HR and 36 RBI "horrible".


I don't think it is personal either. I just think Yost is very short sided. Having Hall bat 5th in front of Hart for an entire month to start the season is proof of this.

Hart had a .346 OBP as of last week. That is pretty good even as a leadoff man. Plus his numbers in 07 were awesome as a leadoff man. He was much more aggressive both at the plate and on the base paths. Frankly I think it is silly to even think that Braun or Fielder need protection of any kind. Those guys can mash regardless of who is hitting behind them.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby Scooter1027 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:13 pm

Yoda wrote:
Scooter1027 wrote:Wow, just all kinds of crazy claims in this thread. It's "personal"? He doesn't like him? Why, because he wants Hart and his big time average with RISP hitting behind Braun/Fielder? Look, I'm not a Yost fan, at all. But I applaud this decision. Hart's just not an ideal leadoff hitter. He only has 13 walks and a .329 OBP. Meanwhile, despite missing time injured, Weeks has 30 walks, 10 HBPs, and an OBP 115 points better than his BA. Hart has done well hitting 5th all season, is our best hitter with RISP, and needs to be hitting 5th so teams have to be honest with Fielder. I'm glad Yost's done with the Hart leading off business. He hit better 5th than 1st last year, and he is this year too (.208 AVG, .208 OBP leading off in '08).

Also, Prince Fielder hitting "horribly"? I know he hasn't lived up to expectations quite yet, but I wouldn't call .285/.370+, with 13 HR and 36 RBI "horrible".


I don't think it is personal either. I just think Yost is very short sided. Having Hall bat 5th in front of Hart for an entire month to start the season is proof of this.

Hart had a .346 OBP as of last week. That is pretty good even as a leadoff man. Plus his numbers in 07 were awesome as a leadoff man. He was much more aggressive both at the plate and on the base paths. Frankly I think it is silly to even think that Braun or Fielder need protection of any kind. Those guys can mash regardless of who is hitting behind them.


Hart was just plain good last year. He hit well in leadoff, he hit even better in the 5 hole. The splits bear it out. These are his career splits:

Hitting 1st (336 PA) -- .269/.316/.534 (.850 OPS), 20 HR, 47 RBI, 14 SB.
Hitting 5th (384 PA) -- .302/.355/.535 (.890 OPS), 15 HR, 60 RBI, 11 SB.

Neither split is really large enough to make sweeping conclusions about, but so far in his career he has hit better 5th than 1st, for whatever reason. And my point isn't so much that Fielder needs protection, it's more that I want Hart and his ability to drive in runs hitting behind my slugger and his .370+ OBP. That, along with the fact that Hart draws very few walks (fewer than Braun and Billy Hall this year, which I wouldn't think possible), makes him a better 5 spot candidate, in my opinion.

Oh, and I agree wholeheartedly with the Hall 5th/Hart 6th business...that was garbage.
Scooter1027
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Cafeholic
Posts: 1124
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby Yoda » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:27 pm

Scooter1027 wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Scooter1027 wrote:Wow, just all kinds of crazy claims in this thread. It's "personal"? He doesn't like him? Why, because he wants Hart and his big time average with RISP hitting behind Braun/Fielder? Look, I'm not a Yost fan, at all. But I applaud this decision. Hart's just not an ideal leadoff hitter. He only has 13 walks and a .329 OBP. Meanwhile, despite missing time injured, Weeks has 30 walks, 10 HBPs, and an OBP 115 points better than his BA. Hart has done well hitting 5th all season, is our best hitter with RISP, and needs to be hitting 5th so teams have to be honest with Fielder. I'm glad Yost's done with the Hart leading off business. He hit better 5th than 1st last year, and he is this year too (.208 AVG, .208 OBP leading off in '08).

Also, Prince Fielder hitting "horribly"? I know he hasn't lived up to expectations quite yet, but I wouldn't call .285/.370+, with 13 HR and 36 RBI "horrible".


I don't think it is personal either. I just think Yost is very short sided. Having Hall bat 5th in front of Hart for an entire month to start the season is proof of this.

Hart had a .346 OBP as of last week. That is pretty good even as a leadoff man. Plus his numbers in 07 were awesome as a leadoff man. He was much more aggressive both at the plate and on the base paths. Frankly I think it is silly to even think that Braun or Fielder need protection of any kind. Those guys can mash regardless of who is hitting behind them.


Hart was just plain good last year. He hit well in leadoff, he hit even better in the 5 hole. The splits bear it out. These are his career splits:

Hitting 1st (336 PA) -- .269/.316/.534 (.850 OPS), 20 HR, 47 RBI, 14 SB.
Hitting 5th (384 PA) -- .302/.355/.535 (.890 OPS), 15 HR, 60 RBI, 11 SB.

Neither split is really large enough to make sweeping conclusions about, but so far in his career he has hit better 5th than 1st, for whatever reason. And my point isn't so much that Fielder needs protection, it's more that I want Hart and his ability to drive in runs hitting behind my slugger and his .370+ OBP. That, along with the fact that Hart draws very few walks (fewer than Braun and Billy Hall this year, which I wouldn't think possible), makes him a better 5 spot candidate, in my opinion.

Oh, and I agree wholeheartedly with the Hall 5th/Hart 6th business...that was garbage.


Your numbers are not showing ABs:
1st - 260 AB
5th - 311 AB

So he hit for more power and is much more aggressive on the base paths when leading off. He already hit 3 HRs in 5 G in the leadoff spot this year before Yost pushed him down the lineup again. Also consider that Yost is effectively giving more plate appearances to a far inferior hitter in Craig Counsell which makes absolutely zero sense.

Oh well. Maybe I'm just crazy but Yost continues to make dumbass moves time after time.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby Scooter1027 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:13 pm

Yoda wrote:Your numbers are not showing ABs:
1st - 260 AB
5th - 311 AB

So he hit for more power and is much more aggressive on the base paths when leading off. He already hit 3 HRs in 5 G in the leadoff spot this year before Yost pushed him down the lineup again. Also consider that Yost is effectively giving more plate appearances to a far inferior hitter in Craig Counsell which makes absolutely zero sense.

Oh well. Maybe I'm just crazy but Yost continues to make dumbass moves time after time.


My numbers showed PA:

Hitting 1st (336 PA) -- .269/.316/.534 (.850 OPS), 20 HR, 47 RBI, 14 SB.
Hitting 5th (384 PA) -- .302/.355/.535 (.890 OPS), 15 HR, 60 RBI, 11 SB.


And while he did hit 3 HR leading off, he also was only OBPing .208. Granted, very small sample. I do agree with you about Counsell, who should get as few ABs as possible. I guess the only logic for me behind Hart leading off would be that we just don't have anyone better. I think when Weeks is playing like he can (witness the last couple months of '07), he's the best leadoff hitter we have. Obviously, he's hurt now, so I don't know what can be done. I think the reason you and I are even having this debate is because Hart is such a multi-talented player -- one can reasonably argue that he should be a leadoff type guy, or hit in a run-producing spot.

Anyway, of all the stupid things Yost has done this year, hitting Hart 5th isn't one of them, to me anyway.
Scooter1027
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Cafeholic
Posts: 1124
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby noseeum » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:16 pm

Yoda wrote:So he hit for more power and is much more aggressive on the base paths when leading off. He already hit 3 HRs in 5 G in the leadoff spot this year before Yost pushed him down the lineup again. Also consider that Yost is effectively giving more plate appearances to a far inferior hitter in Craig Counsell which makes absolutely zero sense.

Oh well. Maybe I'm just crazy but Yost continues to make dumbass moves time after time.


Yoda alludes to it here. The problem is not that Hart should be hitting first instead of fifth. It's that the guys he puts at 1 or 2 this year instead of Hart have no excuse being near the top of the lineup. Sure, Hart might be an ideal number 5, but Counsel is a TERRIBLE 1. So if getting Counsel out of there means Hart has to leadoff than so be it. Get Hart in there. In the beginning of the year when was still out he had Tony Gwynn Jr in the 2 spot. That's just stupid. Counsel and Hardy should not be at the top of a lineup. If Weeks and Cameron are available, putting Hart at 5 is fine. If one of them is not, you have to make adjustments and move Hart up there. This is just elementary. My uncle would have done this in little league.
noseeum
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1697
Joined: 1 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: CHart, no longer leadoff

Postby seniorpaul » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:27 pm

I really don't get Ned Yost. At times, he's loyal to a fault and will stick with guys for to long (Turnbow when he's OBVIOUSLY not throwing strikes, Jenkins vs. Lefties, Dave Bush after he's walked 5 in 4 innings) but when Hart cools off in the leadoff spot for a couple days when the only other option there is Craig Counsell, he makes a quick move. Now, i actually like Hart in the 5 spot (protection for Prince, and he hits well with RISP), but until Weeks is back, Hart should have stayed in the leadoff spot.
seniorpaul
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1401
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: buiviopaufamp, Y`s Guy and 9 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Saturday, Jul. 26
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Toronto at NY Yankees
(1:05 pm)
St. Louis at Chi Cubs
(4:05 pm)
Washington at Cincinnati
(4:05 pm)
Baltimore at Seattle
(4:10 pm)
Arizona at Philadelphia
(7:05 pm)
Boston at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Chi White Sox at Minnesota
(7:10 pm)
NY Mets at Milwaukee
(7:10 pm)
Cleveland at Kansas City
(7:10 pm)
Miami at Houston
(7:10 pm)
San Diego at Atlanta
(7:10 pm)
Oakland at Texas
(8:05 pm)
Pittsburgh at Colorado
(8:10 pm)
Detroit at LA Angels
(9:05 pm)
LA Dodgers at San Francisco
(9:05 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact