nebgib5 wrote:1.3X as many U.S. troops have died in the Iraq War as died on September 11th, and that's all on Bush. By some accounts about 200X as many Iraqi civilians have died as died on September 11th, but unfortunately not too many people care about that.
I highly disagree, 1.3X as many troops have died because America cares about the Iraqi civilians more than they care about the lives of our troops or our national security. We could have turned Iraq into a parking lot and not lost the life of one single soldier, but we didn't do that.
So yes, the total number of deaths are partly on Bush, but make no mistake, the lack of stones in America these days caused Iraq to go the way it did.
Here, I posted this once before:
Madison wrote:America is hated because Bush is a moron, or at least comes across that way. Countries do not understand what he's doing and I can't really blame them for that. Between Bush not being the brightest of bulbs, and too big of a percentage of the population not having the stomach and/or intelligence to deal with real life, he can't exactly explain it to everyone.
It's not that hard to follow though, here:
#1. Bin Laden attacks the Twin Towers.
#2. We learn for sure it was Bin Laden and he was hiding in Afghanistan.
#3. We demanded Afghanistan turn him over to us or we'd come get him.
#4. The group I keep referring to screams and cries that we cannot hurt the poor and innocent people in Afghanistan.
#5. Afghanistan then gives us the finger in response to our demands.
#6. Bush crumples like a cheap suit to the will of those without the stomach/intelligence and hits Afghanistan with a toy gun in a very weak attempt to make it look like countries still better not mess with us.
#7. Resulting in us not getting Bin Laden and appearing to only be the shell of a superpower to the rest of the world (weak, easy to take over - very bad for national security).
#7. The other part of America is sick to their stomaches that the country has become so weak wristed that we can no longer protect ourselves, and knows we just sent the entire world a clear message that now is the time to attack us, when we don't have the stones to defend our country.
#8. Bush needs to save face with those people, and make sure the world knows we have not grown as soft as it may appear because the last thing we need is a full blown war. At one time there'd be no doubt we'd win, but nowadays and with what we just showed with Afghanistan, exactly how many people in this country would pull up their skirts and run in fear, or stare perplexed and drooling like a deer caught in headlights if a real "war" broke out?
#9. Saddam! A bad man with bad intentions, perfect!
#10. Saddam refuses to let the U.N. in to investigate and look for WMD's.
#11. Feed the "WMD" line to the weak stomached so we can rid the world of an evil dictator (since ridding the world of an evil dictator alone isn't enough of a reason to get involved...).
#12, Fold to the outcry of the weak stomached again, turn the "war" into a policing action, and tie the hands of our soldiers.
#13. Watch our fine soldiers come home in bodybags because of it.
From #6 forward, Bush dropped the ball and has never recovered from it, it's only gotten worse. Saddest part is if the country had banded together, sucked it up, grew a pair, and understood that getting Bin Laden regardless of the costs (collateral damage, financial, whatever) truely was in the best interests of the country, there's a very, very good chance we never would have stepped foot in Iraq. Bush played politics to keep a select group happy, and it cost this country big time.
The world hates us because they do not understand what I outlined above and if Bush said what I just said to try to explain it, the Republican party would be completely toasted in elections for a very long time because people always look for someone to blame, even if it isn't necessarily that person's fault. And I'm not defending Bush at all, he flat blew it on multiple occasions and had many chances to fix things. He didn't, so he does still shoulder the majority of the blame. The whole thing is really clear as day though, even though many people either can't understand and acknowledge it, or refuse to see it and refuse to acknowledge it.
Yes doctor, I am sick. Sick of those who are spineless. Sick of those who feel self-entitled. Sick of those who are hypocrites. Yes doctor, an army is forming. Yes doctor, there will be a war. Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
The "world" hates us for more than Bush's stupid actions, that just makes it easier to dislike us is all.
Oh and to the original post, I think Kucinich is great. Then again I'm pretty much a very progresive liberal and find it refreshing a guy speaks up for what he thinks, even if his own party doesnt stand behind him.
In my (albeit anecdotal) experience, "the world" does not detest Americans. My experience has been that they hate our government (just about any government, not just Bush) and think we're boors a lot of the time, but for the most part they like the people of America. It takes a pretty big idiot to blame the man on the street for the decisions of the government, and most of the people I've met in Europe were anything but idiots.
I object to the nation being lied to when so much was at stake, and the burden was going to be so great upon its people (taxpayer money, loss of lives, etc.). As a weak-wristed liberal without the stomach/intelligence to grasp Bush's strategy, I do disagree with his policies, but I am more troubled by the secrecy of the administration and the way in which the American public has been deceived. Many of the world's worst leaders started off more or less okay (hell, Robert Mugabe has an honorary degree from UMass), and then went down the path of manipulating their people for political reasons. Obviously it's unfair to compare Bush and Mugabe, but I still don't understand, even given a wide overlap with Bush's political views, how anyone can not feel troubled by the actions he has taken. I'm not sure I understand points 12 and 13 in that argument, either. Are you actually holding anti-war citizens responsible for U.S. troop deaths in Iraq? Would you have preferred that there be no national outrage after the Tet Offensive, and the Vietnam War had lasted for another 5 years?
I'm pretty sure that we're not going to get past the partisan wall that divides us; it's too bad.
My uneducated opinion, the media makes this stuff much worse. It is sorta like ESPN, you find one guy who has a radical opinion, and his view becomes the story of the day/week/month. While I don't agree with Bush and everything associated with his terms; the media makes things so much worse than they seem. I don't care who was in office, I feel this was all coming. The next president is in the driver's seat, but not because of Bush, but because he really doesn't have control of what will come. The fact that the election will be near 50/50, it invites critics of either side, and we will hear from them no matter what. IMO, the world is messed up, and one country will not fix anything. It will take one big collaboration to make things any where near decent, and there is almost no way that will happen. There is almost no way to make everyone agree on sh!t, because everyone has 'their best interests' at stake. We as Americans have no idea as to what is going on around the rest of the world, and to quote Stephan A. Smith, we Quite Frankly will not understand the thoughts and intentions of other nations, and substequently will never agree with everyone, especially those that we feel we need their commodities from more than we need their 'agreements' from. It may seem like I am a pessimist, but it seems to me like like their is no answer to the big problems of our world today. As long as America does not get what we want, and what the media feels we deserve, there will be conflict, and we have experienced the effects of this for several years now.
bleach168 wrote:How many soldiers have died in Iraq? 4000?
How many people died on 9/11? 3000?
All this talk and energy over the death of 7000 people over a period of 7 years?
Sorry to sound callous, but every year 21,000 people die of Leukemia. Millions die from cancer and heart disease. This country has its priorities messed up.
That's somewhat true actually. Part of it's the sensationalist media. Another part is taht there are a great deal of people out there who think these deaths could have been much more easily avoided than say Leukemia....