I concur. I think it's the last thing some of us want to hear about. You're most welcome to PM each other about it to your hearts content.
So who's forcing you to read it? If you don't want to read something, don't. But this is General Talk, and religious beliefs are as on-topic here as anything else. Your constant whining about religious discussion is ridiculous.
Cornbread's use of Leviticus gives me the impression that this is not his opinion but rather an opinion he's projecting onto Christians. I will avoid interpretation per Mookie's wishes. I just want to say that using Leviticus (Jewish law in the Old Testament) to generalize Christians and their beliefs shows a grave misunderstanding of one of the basic tenets of Christianity.
Maine has a good swing for a pitcher but on anything that moves, he has no chance. And if it's a fastball, it has to be up in the zone. Basically, the pitcher has to hit his bat. - Mike Pelfrey
Amazinz - I used a reference from both the Old Testament and the New Testament - both of which imply that homosexuality is a sin. I fully understand the basic tenants of Christianity and the correlation between Old Testament law and the New Testament.
Mookie - I really would be interested in reading an interpretation of these passages that concludes that homosexuality is not considered a sin.
Specifically: "men committed indecent acts with other men, and recieved in themselves the due penalty for their perversions." ROM 1, 27 NIV version. I just searched this passage in a number of different english translations and cannot fathom how someone would read that and not think the Bible calls homosexuality a sin. I am very interested in reading anything that supports a different Christian viewpoint than this, so please share it with me.
If you feel Im being insulting or arrogant, it really isnt my intention and Im sorry for that, but I would like to discuss this in a fair and reasonable manner without the notion that Im attacking anyone or that Im being attacked for stating a commonly held Christian viewpoint.
Cornbread Maxwell wrote:Mookie - I really would be interested in reading an interpretation of these passages that concludes that homosexuality is not considered a sin.
Do a google search. There's oodles of internet debates, treatises, papers, opinions and interpretations of the Bible's position on homosexuality.
Cornbread Maxwell wrote:If you feel Im being insulting or arrogant, it really isnt my intention and Im sorry for that, but I would like to discuss this in a fair and reasonable manner without the notion that Im attacking anyone or that Im being attacked for stating a commonly held Christian viewpoint.
Have a read over your posts and tell me if they are not arrogant, preachy and insulting.
if a Christian doesnt think homosexuality is a sin and they are aware that the Bible says it is and that the Bible is God's Word, then are they really Christians or have they adopted a more convenient path yet still call themselves Christian even though they believe in a viewpoint that contradicts God's Word?
But the fact is there are tons of people out there who call themselves Christians but are only fooling themselves. The Bible isnt a menu that you can pick and choose those parts that are convenient to you, and if you believe only parts of what the Bible says but disagree with other parts, thats not what being a Christian is either.
And then you go on to state that we should speak out against the sin and not the sinner? You are judging. There are millions of people who disagree with your interpretation and call themselves Christians, who are you to say that they are not? It may be possible to have a civilized discussion about Bible teaching in here without throwing bombs but that's not what you are doing.
I just got back from my googling, and I have to say that I didnt find any solid arguments that disprove the argument that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin. I did read a lot of arguments too - some with a firm understanding of scripture, and some without. The ones with a firm understanding of scripture based their arguments around the societal norms of the writers at the time and therefore ignoring the fact that the Bible was inspired by God, not the writers. If there are a couple in particular that you would like me to read, I will. I went through the first 3 pages of "Bible's stance on homosexuality" as my search keywords.
I have to say, Mookie, that one of my biggest concerns for Christianity is the sheer number of people who call themselves Christians, yet simply are not. For example: Going to war in the name of God? It would be funny if it wasnt so personally upsetting to me. You say there are millions of people who say they are Christians yet believe homosexuality is acceptable to God, and I say those people are not really Christians because the Bible is actually very clear on the subject and yet they have chosen to disagree with God's Word. Why am I the bad guy for saying that, for standing up for the Bible? You either believe in the teachings of the Bible or you dont - one group is Christian, the other is not. I dont understand why you find that so offensive, judgemental, arrogant, insulting, and preachy.
Cornbread - Isn't a person's sin between them and God? You and I and everyone are sinners. We do not endorse sin, we hate it, but we have no right to say that "this" or "that" sin is greater than our sin.
Telling someone to stop sinning is like telling a man floating in the sea to dry himself. It doesn't matter how many towels you give him - he's still wet.
I really hesitate to point out the sins of anyone, and I would caution you from doing so in such a public forum. Inevitably it comes across as a harsh judgment, and a hypocritical one at that. This is not the venue for such judgments. Further, to call out one person or group of people as "sinners" flies in the face of Jesus' own personal, direct teaching. While the apostle Paul is a fine example to us all, he was never God. This is a great time for you to re-read John 8: 1-11.
Cornbread, I really respect you for sticking to your beliefs in a situation where your views are clearly unpopular. For what it's worth, I think you have some valid points in regards to Christianity and what not.
That being said, I think the bigger issue is not whether or not homosexuality is a sin, but whether or not Christian beliefs should be used to determine public policy. If we were to go strictly by the Bible (God's word) then no one should work on the sabbath, we should not touch the skin of a dead pig, and we should not be in contact with women when it's 'their time of the month'.
Cornbread Maxwell wrote:You say there are millions of people who say they are Christians yet believe homosexuality is acceptable to God, and I say those people are not really Christians because the Bible is actually very clear on the subject and yet they have chosen to disagree with God's Word. Why am I the bad guy for saying that, for standing up for the Bible? You either believe in the teachings of the Bible or you dont - one group is Christian, the other is not. I dont understand why you find that so offensive, judgemental, arrogant, insulting, and preachy.
So who are you to make this judgment?
The Methodist Church allows homosexual members, Anglicans have homosexual ministers, European Lutherans accept homosexuals, Presbyterians don't condone but permit open gays in the Church - the Catholic Church is rather fuzzy on the issue right now (as I understand it, being homosexual is ok so long as you don't act on it). Right there are millions of Christians who disagree with you and you are saying that they are not Christians.
I'm sure that if I spent enough time with you I could find something that you do that's not permitted by the bible. That does not mean that you're not a Christian because you don't live your life following a literal interpretation of the bible. Nobody should pass judgment on you like that.