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Verlander or Harden?

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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby yanks924 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:27 pm

So you guys are telling me you'd rather have 200+ innings of 4.6+ (if hes lucky or figures things out quick) ERA baseball, horrible K numbers, and a bad whip over 100 innings of 2.50 ERA, great K numbers, and a great whip? That 200+ will hurt your team, the 100 innings will help your team.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby ScrappyDoo » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:29 pm

Yoda wrote:Great Scrappy... so now all of the people who didn't draft Harden are morons? Keep digging that hole.



Digging a hole? I didn't say that, I said people who refused to touch him if he was available simply because he is an injury risk. That's like refusing to accept a free scratch ticket that gives you a 1-100 chance of winning $10,000, because, "There is no way you'd win" Even if it is a long shot that he stays healthy, if he did he would put up Cy Young numbers. Verlander hasn't been that bad his last few starts, but Harden is simply a much better pitcher than Verlander when healthy. The difference is that most people would be able to play off the injury risk and pick him up at a much cheaper price than Verlander.

Maybe you didn't draft Harden, maybe you drafted Verlander. But I've enjoyed Harden so far, and Verlander has been an absolute disaster. But the kicker is that Harden is my 5th SP, whereas Verlander is most people's 1st SP.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby fezzik » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:36 pm

My brain tells me Verlander and my heart tells me Harden...it's easier for me when they're both in agreement. I have at least one of them in all three of my leagues. When healthy I consider Harden a top 3 MLB pitcher and I'm a sucker for high risk/reward candidates...it's just that the past few years Harden has almost never been healthy...but while Verlander's numbers have improved, his K/9 is still concerning to me (even with the improvement of his other ratios)...but it's hard to imagine the Tigers playing this poorly the entire season. There is just so much potential in Detroit's offense...but there is also so much potential in Harden.

If I was giving someone else advice, I'd tell them to take Verlander over Harden...myself...I'm not sure what I'd do. :-b
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby fezzik » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:52 pm

yanks924 wrote:So you guys are telling me you'd rather have 200+ innings of 4.6+ (if hes lucky or figures things out quick) ERA baseball, horrible K numbers, and a bad whip over 100 innings of 2.50 ERA, great K numbers, and a great whip? That 200+ will hurt your team, the 100 innings will help your team.


I believe we are talking from this point forward...you seem to be ignoring that fact. Verlander has an era of 3.00 and a whip of 1.27 in the last month. His K/9 has been a disappointing 6.00 during that same time, but he did K 8 in his last start. Judging from his history, I would wager that his horrible start was more the aberration than the norm...he's definitely been improving of late and I don't see why that won't continue...I had him ranked as a top 6 SP this year before the draft.

Harden is awesome...when he's pitching...not so much from the DL. It's just a risk/reward decision...do you want the guy who is in a groove, who has some of the best stuff in MLB, but who has been consistently DL bound since arriving in the Bigs...or do you want the stud SP who is off to a bad start, who's been solid of late, but who still has some concerns about his K numbers and whether his offense can remember how to hit.

Safer bet is probably with Verlander...with a nice reward if he continues to improve.

Riskier bet is with Harden...whose potential can't really be matched, but whose injury history is so horribly well-documented that you can't bet on him being healthy for more than half the year (I would have said a quarter of the year, but he's already made it for one quarter. :-° ).

Take your pick...I wouldn't judge anyone a moron for picking either way. :-D
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:58 pm

ScrappyDoo wrote:
Yoda wrote:Great Scrappy... so now all of the people who didn't draft Harden are morons? Keep digging that hole.



Digging a hole? I didn't say that, I said people who refused to touch him if he was available simply because he is an injury risk. That's like refusing to accept a free scratch ticket that gives you a 1-100 chance of winning $10,000, because, "There is no way you'd win" Even if it is a long shot that he stays healthy, if he did he would put up Cy Young numbers. Verlander hasn't been that bad his last few starts, but Harden is simply a much better pitcher than Verlander when healthy. The difference is that most people would be able to play off the injury risk and pick him up at a much cheaper price than Verlander.

Maybe you didn't draft Harden, maybe you drafted Verlander. But I've enjoyed Harden so far, and Verlander has been an absolute disaster. But the kicker is that Harden is my 5th SP, whereas Verlander is most people's 1st SP.


Don't take this personally but Harden was taken around 150-175 overall in all of my leagues (and I'm sure most other leagues as well) so unless you play with completely noobs and/or play in a 6 team league, you didn't get him with your late pick.

I don't have either pitcher. I just find it funny that Harden stays intact for a few games and all of a sudden he is the golden boy. Happens every year.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby ScrappyDoo » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:12 pm

I took Harden in the 16th round or so, so it fits with the ADP of your leagues. But in some leagues he didn't get picked.

I have Harden in all of my leagues, so I do show a little bias towards him. I just cant help rooting for him, I've been a fan of his for a while, and almost every year I have him on my team. Which you would think would make me hate him for all of his injury disappointments, but I don't. I want to see him stay healthy because he is without a doubt one of the best pitchers in the game today.

I've watched his last few games and he has been absolutely dominant. Even the two HR's he has given up were on two good pitches low in the zone that were golfed out of the park, one by Vlad and one by Granderson. That's why I am such a big fan of him on my teams, because, for one, I play in H2H leagues for the most part and can just stash him until he is healthy.

He is treated like a golden boy because he is a top 5 pitcher in the majors when healthy, and we haven't even seen him get in a groove because of the injuries. I am aware of the risks but there is no pitcher out there that can be had for as cheap as Harden with the ability to provide top 3 SP stats.

Verlander is good, but he isn't an elite pitcher. Harden is, and if he stays healthy he will show how good he really is. If he gets hurt, I'm sure you will be the first to say I told you so, but I don't care, I'll take the good with the bad.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:16 pm

ScrappyDoo wrote:Harden is, and if he stays healthy he will show how good he really is.


That is a big, giant, huge 'if'. I can certainly understand how Harden owners really want to believe that he will stay healthy but I don't think that it is very prudent to take him over someone like Verlander. I could be wrong though so we'll see.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Dhark » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:07 pm

That is exactly what I was trying say. Most Verlander owners drafted him at the top to be thier ace. The Harden owners are taking him at the bottom of the draft. We are all well aware of his injury concerns and know that he will not play a whole season. What we do know is that we payed nothing for him and are currently getting much more production per that investment. I bid on Verlander but he went for a dollar less than B Webb, so I made the obvious choice. I like Verlander, but at this point in the season I am much happier to have drafted Harden for a dollar than to have wasted $23 on Verlander. No one could have foreseen this outcome to this point, but I am happy I came out ahead. I don't think anyone has said Harden will play the rest of the season. What they are saying is that while he is on the mound, you will get more production out of him than Verlander. Which is a tough point to argue against. So I will continue to get better production out of my 5th pitcher while your #1 continues to struggle.....that is what the pro Harden argument boils down to.


ScrappyDoo wrote:
Yoda wrote:Great Scrappy... so now all of the people who didn't draft Harden are morons? Keep digging that hole.



Digging a hole? I didn't say that, I said people who refused to touch him if he was available simply because he is an injury risk. That's like refusing to accept a free scratch ticket that gives you a 1-100 chance of winning $10,000, because, "There is no way you'd win" Even if it is a long shot that he stays healthy, if he did he would put up Cy Young numbers. Verlander hasn't been that bad his last few starts, but Harden is simply a much better pitcher than Verlander when healthy. The difference is that most people would be able to play off the injury risk and pick him up at a much cheaper price than Verlander.

Maybe you didn't draft Harden, maybe you drafted Verlander. But I've enjoyed Harden so far, and Verlander has been an absolute disaster. But the kicker is that Harden is my 5th SP, whereas Verlander is most people's 1st SP.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby yanks924 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:09 pm

Couldn't have said it better...
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:22 pm

:-°
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