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Verlander or Harden?

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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby ScrappyDoo » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:31 pm

Harden for me.

Granted he always seems to be hurt, but Harden is simply a much better pitcher. He has dominated the last month. Verlander has been awful and he is killing your stats, in H2H, Harden is even more valuable, because if he is healthy you know he is going to deal. Watch Harden stay healthy all year and post a 2.50 ERA, 1.15 WHIP, and 10.5 K/9, wins may not come with that weak offense but he is a top 5 pitcher when he is healthy.

If Harden stays healthy for 5-7 more starts for the rest of the year he will outproduce Verlander who's early numbers are so bad he will have trouble bringing them down to his normal range.

And I know he is an injury risk, but just because I flip a coin 20 times and it comes up tails 20 times, doesnt change the odds on the 21st flip. People who focus so much on the past are going to be looking pretty dumb for not taking a flier on someone so talented late in the draft because they were afraid of a potential injury.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:06 pm

Which scenario is more likely? Verlander pitching better than he has or Harden staying healthy for the next 4 months?

Harden = fool's gold. His body simply cannot hold up.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby yanks924 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:21 pm

Neither are guarantees but Harden has pitched 47.1 innings this year so far, thats more than his 06' and 07' campaigns. Like most Harden owners they got him late and whatever you get out of him is just a plus to your team. And Verlander looks so bad this year who knows whats going on with him.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby ScrappyDoo » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:28 pm

I'll take Harden's 75 Innings pitched plus the best WW pickup in case he gets injured over whatever garbage Verlander will give you over 200 + IP. You'd end up with better numbers with Harden + WW Pickup.

You can always DL Harden, especially in H2H leagues, and spot start others.

I wonder if Hafner owners like him better when he is playing terribly or taking up a DL spot. In roto leagues, Verlander has already caused significant damage considering he was taken as a fantasy ace.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:33 pm

yanks924 wrote:Neither are guarantees but Harden has pitched 47.1 innings this year so far, thats more than his 06' and 07' campaigns. Like most Harden owners they got him late and whatever you get out of him is just a plus to your team. And Verlander looks so bad this year who knows whats going on with him.


The OP is asking from this point on who would you rather have? It is a pointless to bring up who has been more valuable to date. Cliff Lee has pitched better than anyone else in the AL. Do you think he will be the best pitcher by the end of the season?

Just because Harden exceeded his 06, 07 total IP doesn't mean that he won't break down. And just because Verlander looks like dog poop right now doesn't mean he will continue to look like dog poop. That's just naive.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:36 pm

ScrappyDoo wrote:I'll take Harden's 75 Innings pitched plus the best WW pickup in case he gets injured over whatever garbage Verlander will give you over 200 + IP. You'd end up with better numbers with Harden + WW Pickup.

You can always DL Harden, especially in H2H leagues, and spot start others.

I wonder if Hafner owners like him better when he is playing terribly or taking up a DL spot. In roto leagues, Verlander has already caused significant damage considering he was taken as a fantasy ace.


I don't know what is funnier. Harden never staying healthy or people who actually believe that he can stay healthy.

Every year I hear "this is the year Harden stays healthy".
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Giambis » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:51 pm

Yoda wrote:
ScrappyDoo wrote:I'll take Harden's 75 Innings pitched plus the best WW pickup in case he gets injured over whatever garbage Verlander will give you over 200 + IP. You'd end up with better numbers with Harden + WW Pickup.

You can always DL Harden, especially in H2H leagues, and spot start others.

I wonder if Hafner owners like him better when he is playing terribly or taking up a DL spot. In roto leagues, Verlander has already caused significant damage considering he was taken as a fantasy ace.


I don't know what is funnier. Harden never staying healthy or people who actually believe that he can stay healthy.

Every year I hear "this is the year Harden stays healthy".


Amen.
This debate illustrates the problems of the recency effect.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby ScrappyDoo » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:54 pm

Yoda wrote:
ScrappyDoo wrote:I'll take Harden's 75 Innings pitched plus the best WW pickup in case he gets injured over whatever garbage Verlander will give you over 200 + IP. You'd end up with better numbers with Harden + WW Pickup.

You can always DL Harden, especially in H2H leagues, and spot start others.

I wonder if Hafner owners like him better when he is playing terribly or taking up a DL spot. In roto leagues, Verlander has already caused significant damage considering he was taken as a fantasy ace.


I don't know what is funnier. Harden never staying healthy or people who actually believe that he can stay healthy.

Every year I hear "this is the year Harden stays healthy".


I dont expect him to stay healthy, but Verlander has pitched terribly, which may not matter in H2H leagues, but has dug a pretty considerable hole to bring his stats back down to what was expected of him.

Having low expectations and getting great results part time is a lot better than having great expectations and getting sub par results full time.

You may think it's funny. But what I think is funny is the morons that didn't draft him at all even as a last round pick because, "He's just going to get hurt" I dont care if he gets hurt, I'll DL him, and when he gets better he will dominate, if hes out for the season so be it, I got more out of him than I expected. Verlander isn't pitching any better than a WW pitcher, and really hasn't begun to turn it around, the Tigers are a mess and things aren't getting better.

Verlander could pitch like crap all season, Harden could get hurt.

If someone offered me Verlander for Harden, I would probably have a real hard time deciding, but I would probably stay put, and I'll take the risk, and hopefully reap the rewards.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby RedHopeful » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:10 pm

Yoda wrote:
yanks924 wrote:Neither are guarantees but Harden has pitched 47.1 innings this year so far, thats more than his 06' and 07' campaigns. Like most Harden owners they got him late and whatever you get out of him is just a plus to your team. And Verlander looks so bad this year who knows whats going on with him.


The OP is asking from this point on who would you rather have? It is a pointless to bring up who has been more valuable to date. Cliff Lee has pitched better than anyone else in the AL. Do you think he will be the best pitcher by the end of the season?

Just because Harden exceeded his 06, 07 total IP doesn't mean that he won't break down. And just because Verlander looks like dog poop right now doesn't mean he will continue to look like dog poop. That's just naive.


Completely agree Yoda, but it's not worth arguing. If people are really in current stats, how come they can't realize Verlander's improvement each month? His BB/ERA/WHIP have gone down while K's up. The rest of the way, I'd be happy with Verlander posting around his yearly averages: 3.6 ERA/1.25 WHIP with solid K's and wins. It's much better to get 100+ innings of those numbers than another x amount (who knows but it won't be a full season's worth) out of Harden who has been trending upwards and is perhaps the biggest injury risk in baseball. Also, Harden hasn't pitched over 100 innings since 2005 so his arm can't have the staminia to last very long anyways.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:13 pm

Great Scrappy... so now all of the people who didn't draft Harden are morons? Keep digging that hole.
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