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Verlander or Harden?

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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Dan Lambskin » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:41 am

RedHopeful wrote:Leyland talking about Verlander having a dead arm and now Yahoo is reporting a scout thinks he's regressed? :-o

ESPN.com's Jayson Stark reports a scout said Detroit Tigers SP Justin Verlander has regressed. "His stuff is now a grade below what it was. He's become a two-seam sinkerball pitcher. Where's the front-door hammer (curveball)? Where's that four-seam fastball he used to bang guys away with? I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing a lot of contact, and the hitters look way too comfortable," the scout said.


pretty much all of the Tigers picthers have regressed under pitching coach Chuck Hernandez, except for Kenny Rogers who i'm guessing just doesnt listen. i'm sure if he's still around next year he'll try to tweak someting Galaraga does and ruin him too
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Inukchuk » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:48 am

Dan Lambskin wrote:... except for Kenny Rogers who i'm guessing just doesnt listen.


As funny as that is, you're probably right... :-b
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby B-Chad » Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:15 am

Call me crazy, but I'd consider taking Harden in front of Verlander next year. Yes I own Harden, but I've also owned Verlander in the past. I'm also not a bitter owner who is upset at his production (or lack thereof) this year. Getting that out of the way, I can very easily see many publications touting Verlander as a "buy low" next year, and Harden as a guy to avoid going into drafts. If that's the case, Verlander may yet again be relied on too heavily, and Harden avoided to greatly.

Obviously if I do draft Harden in front of Verlander, I will be surrounding him with more stable talent. The fact is, everyone can agree, when Harden is healthy he is a stud. Not a single person has argued against that, even the pro-Verlander posters can agree with that assessment. Health is the issue, and always has been and always will be the issue with Harden. Because of the risk associated with Harden (injury) owners can plan accordingly. The risks around Verlander are different, and to me, scarier. Verlander is putting together an absolutely miserable season, following an absolutely miserable post all-star break from last year. Another troubling fact is his career splits against teams in his division, teams he'll face multiple times a year in all likelihood. The only team he has posted trully top shelf numbers against are the Royals, a team that has some good young hitters developing that could hurt his numbers just a touch. He's put up mediocre-good numbers against the Twins (57 IP 4-4 3.63 1.33 and 33 K's) and absolute garbage (or Livan Hernandez esq numbers if you prefer) numbers up against the Indians and White Sox (6-16 with a 6+ ERA and a WHIP over 1.40 if you averaged all the starts together).

Also concerning is Verlander's HR totals, which aren't terrible, but considering he pitches his home games in Detroit, not say Cinci, Texas, etc., aren't very good (57 career in 557 IP). Also more concerning is that he's allowing these HR's while he's supposedly relying on his 2 seam fastball, a groundball pitch from my understanding. Verlander's career 1.29 WHIP is nothing to write home about, and his K rate fluctuates way too much for my liking. His .237 BAA this year and career .247 BAA are certainly promising, but consider me someone not sold on Verlander.

As for Harden, the concerns will always be his health. Stuff never comes into question with him. However, is it unreasonable to think that at 26 (going on 27 in November) he might finally being maturing physically and able to endure the rigors of a full season (with the expected short DL stint most pitchers have during a season)? Some will say yes, but I say why? Yes caution should certainly be used drafting him next year, and no one should rely on him as an ace, but as a number 2 with ace potential why not? He's pitching fantastic in the NL, and he'll be there next year. He doesn't have the accumulated wear and tear of throwing a huge number of innings, and maybe that'll work to his benefit here on out for his career. Verlander is also looking at possibly working another 200+ IP this year, and who is to say that won't catch up with him next year?

Obviously this has been a hot topic, and not all will agree with where I stand, but it is certainly something to ponder I believe. Besides, if you want a real bounce back candidate give me Aaron Harang, the dude is gonna slip way too far in next year's drafts :-b
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Inukchuk » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:47 am

B-Chad wrote:...I can very easily see many publications touting Verlander as a "buy low" next year, and Harden as a guy to avoid going into drafts. If that's the case, Verlander may yet again be relied on too heavily, and Harden avoided to greatly.


Interesting point. That very well could happen next year, especially in leagues full of more experienced owners. Everyone will be touting Verlander as a bounce back, and next thing you know, he's overrated.

I'll be interested to see how that shakes out next year. Personally, I think I'll be avoiding both, but I'm a big sissy when it comes to risky players... O:-)
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby ataraxia » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:49 am

Inukchuk wrote:
B-Chad wrote:...I can very easily see many publications touting Verlander as a "buy low" next year, and Harden as a guy to avoid going into drafts. If that's the case, Verlander may yet again be relied on too heavily, and Harden avoided to greatly.


Interesting point. That very well could happen next year, especially in leagues full of more experienced owners. Everyone will be touting Verlander as a bounce back, and next thing you know, he's overrated.

I'll be interested to see how that shakes out next year. Personally, I think I'll be avoiding both, but I'm a big sissy when it comes to risky players... O:-)


If I can take Verlander past the 9th round, I will snag him. I'd be weary of taking him in the 8th, and would probably avoid him in the 7th.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby J35J » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:26 am

I'm worried Verlander is changing his style. This is a guy with just as good of stuff as Harden, maybe better, but now seems to be going away from it. This last month+ will determine alot for me. I likely won't own either guy next year.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby ScrappyDoo » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:08 pm

Oh man. This one wasn't even close. I'd love to hear what Yank's Baby has to say after all that talk.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby sportsguy138 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:39 pm

What a crazy season for Verlander. Too bad, really. He has some dirty stuff.

I still don't see how anyone could have taken Harden at the beginning of the season over Verlander though.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Dan Lambskin » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:52 am

sportsguy138 wrote:What a crazy season for Verlander. Too bad, really. He has some dirty stuff.

I still don't see how anyone could have taken Harden at the beginning of the season over Verlander though.


i dont think i would next year either...i cant see myself spending a high pick on Harden and Verls will probably fall pretty far. i'm still leery that he can rebound to be an Ace but at least he'll have a new pitching coach
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