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Verlander or Harden?

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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Dan Lambskin » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:44 pm

No Hitters Thrown
Verlander = 1
Harden = 0

AL ROY
Verlander = 1
Harden = 0

case closed ;-7
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Inukchuk » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:03 pm

ScrappyDoo wrote:That sentence should have read:

June 10th, to be exact, but why let the facts get in the way?


Wow, now you're just getting desperate... :-t
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby ScrappyDoo » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Yoda wrote:
ScrappyDoo wrote:I haven't backpedaled. I said at the start of this thread that Harden will outproduce Verlander from about June 1st or so. I still stand by that, and I still think he will outproduce him even with a DL stint or too. Since his ratios are so much better than Verlander's and he'll strike out close to twice as many people in the same amount of innings ( Assuming the 6.5 and 11 K/9 remains around the same). I just need some OF help so I am trying to trade him.

I am also aware of the fact that his ADP was 14th round or so. So I realize he didn't go undrafted in any league that is competitive, but there were people who were saying earlier this year they wouldn't touch him regardless of the circumstances. They are the only people I think are moronic, and I understand this is a hypothetical situation because someone was probably willing to take a chance on him.


June 10 to be exact but why let facts get in the way?


Like correcting a date by 9 days isn't getting desperate. Only reason I wrote such a worthless response was because of Yoda's post.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby dclark0699 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:20 pm

ScrappyDoo wrote:That sentence should have read:

June 10th, to be exact, but why let the facts get in the way?


Well, if we are going to play this game...(a game I love dearly)

ScrappyDoo wrote:I haven't backpedaled. I said, at the start of this thread, that Harden will outproduce Verlander from about June 1st or so. I still stand by that, and I still think he will outproduce him, even with a DL stint or two. Since his ratios are so much better than Verlander's and he'll strike out close to twice as many people in the same amount of innings ( Assuming the 6.5 and 11 K/9 remains around the same)(That sentence was a fragment). I just need some OF help, so I am trying to trade him.


:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Yoda » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:26 pm

ScrappyDoo wrote:
Yoda wrote:
ScrappyDoo wrote:I haven't backpedaled. I said at the start of this thread that Harden will outproduce Verlander from about June 1st or so. I still stand by that, and I still think he will outproduce him even with a DL stint or too. Since his ratios are so much better than Verlander's and he'll strike out close to twice as many people in the same amount of innings ( Assuming the 6.5 and 11 K/9 remains around the same). I just need some OF help so I am trying to trade him.

I am also aware of the fact that his ADP was 14th round or so. So I realize he didn't go undrafted in any league that is competitive, but there were people who were saying earlier this year they wouldn't touch him regardless of the circumstances. They are the only people I think are moronic, and I understand this is a hypothetical situation because someone was probably willing to take a chance on him.


June 10 to be exact but why let facts get in the way?


Like correcting a date by 9 days isn't getting desperate. Only reason I wrote such a worthless response was because of Yoda's post.


Sample sizes:
1. Jun 1 = 5 starts
2. June 10 = 3 starts

It was pointless to debate who is better since the sample size is so small to begin with. However you were fudging your argument by including starts that were not part of the debate. Just wanted to make sure you had all the facts straight.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby ScrappyDoo » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

dclark0699 wrote:
ScrappyDoo wrote:That sentence should have read:

June 10th, to be exact, but why let the facts get in the way?


Well, if we are going to play this game...(a game I love dearly)

ScrappyDoo wrote:I haven't backpedaled. I said, at the start of this thread, that Harden will outproduce Verlander from about June 1st or so. I still stand by that, and I still think he will outproduce him, even with a DL stint or two. Since his ratios are so much better than Verlander's and he'll strike out close to twice as many people in the same amount of innings ( Assuming the 6.5 and 11 K/9 remains around the same)(That sentence was a fragment). I just need some OF help, so I am trying to trade him.


:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D


Guilty. Everyone makes typos, and no one is 100% grammatically correct. I was just giving Yoda a hard time when I said June 1st or so instead of going back and reading when the thread was first started.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Yoda » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:29 pm

ScrappyDoo wrote:
dclark0699 wrote:
ScrappyDoo wrote:That sentence should have read:

June 10th, to be exact, but why let the facts get in the way?


Well, if we are going to play this game...(a game I love dearly)

ScrappyDoo wrote:I haven't backpedaled. I said, at the start of this thread, that Harden will outproduce Verlander from about June 1st or so. I still stand by that, and I still think he will outproduce him, even with a DL stint or two. Since his ratios are so much better than Verlander's and he'll strike out close to twice as many people in the same amount of innings ( Assuming the 6.5 and 11 K/9 remains around the same)(That sentence was a fragment). I just need some OF help, so I am trying to trade him.


:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D


Guilty. Everyone makes typos, and no one is 100% grammatically correct. I was just giving Yoda a hard time when I said June 1st or so instead of going back and reading when the thread was first started.


I think that there is a difference between someone pointing out something that is factually incorrect in a debate versus something that is grammatically incorrect. But anyway... :-°
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby yanks924 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:46 pm

Um, yeah...I have a sneaky suspicion that we're in total agreement but neither of us realizes it. Or maybe it's just me. !+)

This is my interpretation of yanks924's statement: he seems to be a Harden backer (or just a guy who wants to argue with Yoda), and he's trying to say that anyone that prefers Verlander is either an idiot or they can predict that Harden gets hurt which he believes to be a ridiculous precognitive ability. If that's not what he meant, then the options (as Red said) are mutually exclusive and it was a totally useless thing to say.

I was implying that the keen manager will take into account the fact that Harden is injury prone and use that to go after the safer bet (Verlander) which, as RedHopeful said, implies that you do know something about fantasy baseball. That's why I said he was right, but only on option B. In other words, if you choose Verlander then you do know something about fantasy baseball. If you go with Harden, you're maximizing risk, which will kill you in the long run.

Harden may very well continue to be dominant for the rest of this year. However, that's like seeing a bunch of black numbers on the roulette board (aka a bunch of healthy starts by Harden) and assuming they will continue. The problem with that is, if you're a poor gambler (or fantasy baseball player), you'll put more stock in the short term, and lose sight of the long term fact that the house always wins (or Harden gets hurt a lot, in our little analogy), and you'll ride black (or Harden) until you're out of money.

I think that it would be great if Harden tore it up for the rest of the year. Then all those people who were "geniuses" for having drafted Harden won't learn the valuable lesson of never trusting the injury prone guy. That's better for me, because I don't like to pay for high risk guys, and they'll have less money.


I am a Harden backer and I think he is one of the best pitchers in baseball when he can stay healthy. My whole point between Harden and Verlander is If Harden throws 100-120 Innings this year which is 4 more starts of this kind of baseball compared to 200 innings pitched of Verlander overall Harden will end up helping your team more than Verlander. Of course now if your drafting before the season you would probably take Verlander before you would take Harden because of his injury issues. And just because you take injuries into consideration has no barring on whether you know anything about fantasy baseball that just means you know his injury history lol. And if you want to go with percentages the odds of Harden staying healthy the rest of this year can't really be that bad (not that they are great). 3 years in a row he has had to shut it down because of injuries, sounds to me like he is due for a season without a season ending injury. Maybe I am biased because I like Harden but I don't think it would be THAT crazy if he threw dominant baseball the rest of this year. And if he were to do that that would just make my point even more. Harden 100+ innings helps your team more than Verlanders 200+ innings.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby ScrappyDoo » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:53 pm

So far this year, Harden has 5 more K's and 1 more Win than Verlander in 41 less IP. So he really doesn't need to stay healthy all year to be more valuable. His ratio's will help your team more than Verlander's, even if they come with less IP. Win's will probably finish in Verlander's favor, but Harden will strike out about 4 more batters per 9 IP. That will make it hard for Verlander to compete in that category barring a major season ending injury to Harden.
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Re: Verlander or Harden?

Postby Yoda » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:42 pm

yanks924 wrote:I think he is one of the best pitchers in baseball when he can stay healthy.


You guys keep repeating this as if no one else sees this. I only sound like a broken record because I keep rebutting the same argument over and over again. OK I am officially out of this thread until the end of the season. No sense in arguing with a wall. :-°
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