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SP/RP dual eligibility

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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby supadupaman8787 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:53 am

We're in a H2H league so ratios don't factor in. Also, talking about using Papelbon to start a game is irrelevant because the commish is not concerned with putting a RP in a SP slot. It's the other way around. So yes, like Upton, Braun, etc., a manager can easily put a starter into a relief role for basically any game (see the Reds with Harang and Volquez a few weeks back. It is also not uncommon for Joe Torre to use starters out of the bullpen). Anyways, how is using Joba or Scherzer (my two guys) as a RP when they are starting a game illegal when they have both clearly been dual SP/RP pitchers for their own teams this year? If Scherzer converts back to a starter mid-week, should I only get half his points?

Having said all that, my real problem is the rule change mid-season. I have a few guys intentionally on my roster with SP/RP eligibility because the commish never said anything about the designation before the season. If he had, I would have disagreed with him (not try to change the rules, just disagree), but would have followed the rules and designed my team differently. How was I supposed to assume that we couldn't use an SP as an RP if they had the designation on the site?

My original question was what other sites (in their basic formats) use dual eligibility for pitchers? I know ESPN and Yahoo do, but who else?
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby Bobbleheadrusty » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:59 am

Ok people, we aren't allowed to disagree with Matthias, since he is always right.

The argument here shouldn't be whether a position player and pitcher should have different eligibility rules. The question was is it right for a commish to declare dual pitcher eligibility a "glitch" and change the rules mid season. Since most leagues don't outlaw it (and most websites don't recognize it as a glitch), we should agree with the OP that his commish was wrong to change the rule midseason.

Matthias, you completely glossed over my earlier example, but there are dozens of pitchers who rotate from SP to RP, based on team need. My favorite example might actually be Radhames Liz. He came up last year and worked as a reliever. When he came up yesterday most formats had him labeled a RP, even though he was to start. Are you saying that I shouldn't, if I chose to, be able to use him as a SP last night? There is no system that is set up to change eligibility based on daily position, so I couldnt use him as a SP and I couldnt use him in a RP spot according to you. This happens dozens of times a season.

How about Aaron Harang? If I have him as a SP should I not be able to get credit for the 4IP he had in relief? Since that effects (potentially) his next start shouldnt I get that benefit if he is in my lineup?
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby lilfrier » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:09 pm

Matthias wrote:
lilfrier wrote:Yes, there is. The pitchers do, in fact, get more Ks, and they can't get saves. At the same time, the SPs only go once every five days. They only get more Ks in their start because they only go once, maybe twice, a week.

Wha, wha, huh?!?!!
lilfrier wrote:And how can you say that Upton doesn't matter? Just the process the Cubs had to take to switch Ronny Cedeno from SS to 2B took about a month.

Because player can flip back and forth between position they currently know and positions they're currently played on a day-to-day basis. Heck, I think Inge has played everything except pitcher. But pitchers can't bounce between the bullpen and a starting role.
lilfrier wrote:The Sox moving Papelbon to a starter's irrelevant. Switching a guy built for 1-2 IP is different than a guy like Gallagher or Lieber who was meant to pitch 3-5 innings when there was an issue with the starter. Both of them were plugged right in. Joba's different because he was a 1-inning guy.

You prefer to talk about Brett Myers, who you guys were talking about before? He was the closer last year and he did have some 2-inning outings but for the most part he was a 1-inning guy.
lilfrier wrote:If you have someone like Gallagher, who someone in a deeper league held as their 3rd RP and had no backup guy, then what do they do? Do you force them to drop Gallagher, someone who is making quality starts behind a good offense, only to pickup a crappy middle reliever like Zach Miner? I can understand not allowing it in cases like Myers', but with long relievers, it's a lot different than with a Joba-type guy who went from short relief to starting. Teams have dual-eligible pitchers on their rosters called long relievers with the sole purpose of having them as a reliever or an emergency starter. That's the way it works in baseball, that's how it should be in fantasy...

OK.... I've heard about a million times the quote, "that's how it is in the MLB, that's how it should be in fantasy" and you know what? It's wrong. Do you have salaries in your fantasy league? Revenue numbers? Luxury taxes? Golden gloves? Arbitration? Park adjustments? A complete minor-league system? There's a million things that are in the MLB that don't make it over to fantasy so just arbitrarily picking one is no support whatsoever.

As far as what someone should do with Gallagher, what they should do is play Gallagher whereever he is being played by the Tigers. If he's long relief, put him in an RP spot. If he is starting, put him at SP. If he gets sent back to the bullpen, then use him as an RP again. It's pretty simple.


Umm...Sean Gallagher plays for the CHICAGO CUBS. And again, if you have him as your only available RP, what to do you? Let your roster be illegal, or lose a solid pitcher to pick up a scrub RP so a whiny commish gets his way, despite the entire league consensus disagreeing with him.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby Matthias » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:19 pm

Bobbleheadrusty wrote:Ok people, we aren't allowed to disagree with Matthias, since he is always right.

Now we're making some headway. :-D
Bobbleheadrusty wrote:The argument here shouldn't be whether a position player and pitcher should have different eligibility rules. The question was is it right for a commish to declare dual pitcher eligibility a "glitch" and change the rules mid season. Since most leagues don't outlaw it (and most websites don't recognize it as a glitch), we should agree with the OP that his commish was wrong to change the rule midseason.

I do agree that it was wrong to change the rules mid-season. I just don't think that the rule change, itself, is wrong. There is a difference.
Bobbleheadrusty wrote:Matthias, you completely glossed over my earlier example, but there are dozens of pitchers who rotate from SP to RP, based on team need. My favorite example might actually be Radhames Liz. He came up last year and worked as a reliever. When he came up yesterday most formats had him labeled a RP, even though he was to start. Are you saying that I shouldn't, if I chose to, be able to use him as a SP last night? There is no system that is set up to change eligibility based on daily position, so I couldnt use him as a SP and I couldnt use him in a RP spot according to you. This happens dozens of times a season.

I would say that you're a thinking individual and if a league decides before the season that if pitchers can only be played in the capacity that they're being used that night, you can figure out which one of those it is and adjust your roster accordingly. Weird occurrences such as Harang pitching in a relief role in an extra-inning game you do not adjust for because first of all, they're so rare as to be pretty meaningless, and second of all, what you're trying to deter is patterns of behavior (or strategy if you want to call it that) not the random, weird events.

And this is why I just made all of my pitchers P in my league: it avoids this entire mess. If you want all relievers, go for it. If you want all starters, go for it. And our settings are adjusted so that neither way will win you the league.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby Matthias » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:22 pm

lilfrier wrote:Umm...Sean Gallagher plays for the CHICAGO CUBS. And again, if you have him as your only available RP, what to do you? Let your roster be illegal, or lose a solid pitcher to pick up a scrub RP so a whiny commish gets his way, despite the entire league consensus disagreeing with him.

I was thinking of Armando Galarraga, who is also a reliever/starter/reliever this year who plays for the Tigers.

If your league requires a Relief Pitcher and the only Relief Pitcher you have is actually a Starter, you get a Reliever. It's pretty simple. See rules. Read rules. Follow rules.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby noseeum » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:34 pm

Matthias wrote:And this is why I just made all of my pitchers P in my league: it avoids this entire mess. If you want all relievers, go for it. If you want all starters, go for it. And our settings are adjusted so that neither way will win you the league.


I don't really get what you're saying. You're ranting about it being BS to use SPs in an RP slot, and then you say, "and that is why I use P". Fair enough. You hate SP/RP slots.

That's not the question. This guy has SP/RP slots. He used them fairly. And the commish is now saying he can't. It doesn't matter your opinion on the idiocy of using SP/RP.

BTW, as to the original question. CBS also supports SP/RP or just P.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby noseeum » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:39 pm

Matthias wrote:
lilfrier wrote:Umm...Sean Gallagher plays for the CHICAGO CUBS. And again, if you have him as your only available RP, what to do you? Let your roster be illegal, or lose a solid pitcher to pick up a scrub RP so a whiny commish gets his way, despite the entire league consensus disagreeing with him.

I was thinking of Armando Galarraga, who is also a reliever/starter/reliever this year who plays for the Tigers.

If your league requires a Relief Pitcher and the only Relief Pitcher you have is actually a Starter, you get a Reliever. It's pretty simple. See rules. Read rules. Follow rules.


No leagues require a relief pitcher unless the league specifically opts to state that. If there's an RP slot, the league requires a pitcher with RP eligibility. It does not require an RP.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby Matthias » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:41 pm

noseeum wrote:
Matthias wrote:And this is why I just made all of my pitchers P in my league: it avoids this entire mess. If you want all relievers, go for it. If you want all starters, go for it. And our settings are adjusted so that neither way will win you the league.

I don't really get what you're saying. You're ranting about it being BS to use SPs in an RP slot, and then you say, "and that is why I use P". Fair enough. You hate SP/RP slots.

That's not the question. This guy has SP/RP slots. He used them fairly. And the commish is now saying he can't. It doesn't matter your opinion on the idiocy of using SP/RP.

BTW, as to the original question. CBS also supports SP/RP or just P.

Sure, as does Yahoo. Although on CBS you can customize the requirements so that you can set the number of appearances, this year and next, that allows them to qualify for the position outside of their primary designation (which is from Sportsline).

But the original post also said he didn't see how it was different than playing Ryan Braun at 3B and I was trying to explain why I think it is very different. There's two levels to the question: (1) Is it right to change the rules mid-season? (No); and (2) Does this rule make sense in a general sense? (To me, yes).
Last edited by Matthias on Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby Matthias » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:42 pm

noseeum wrote:
Matthias wrote:
lilfrier wrote:Umm...Sean Gallagher plays for the CHICAGO CUBS. And again, if you have him as your only available RP, what to do you? Let your roster be illegal, or lose a solid pitcher to pick up a scrub RP so a whiny commish gets his way, despite the entire league consensus disagreeing with him.

I was thinking of Armando Galarraga, who is also a reliever/starter/reliever this year who plays for the Tigers.
If your league requires a Relief Pitcher and the only Relief Pitcher you have is actually a Starter, you get a Reliever. It's pretty simple. See rules. Read rules. Follow rules.

No leagues require a relief pitcher unless the league specifically opts to state that. If there's an RP slot, the league requires a pitcher with RP eligibility. It does not require an RP.

Sure, but specifically requiring it is exactly what we have been talking about.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby noseeum » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:09 pm

Matthias wrote:
noseeum wrote:No leagues require a relief pitcher unless the league specifically opts to state that. If there's an RP slot, the league requires a pitcher with RP eligibility. It does not require an RP.

Sure, but specifically requiring it is exactly what we have been talking about.


Only you have really been talking about that. The question was whether the commish is overstepping his bounds and whether SP/RP is a glitch. The default for a league that uses SP/RP is that it does not specifically require it. It only requires eligibility. In fact, there is no support on these sites for specifically requiring it. ESPN, CBS, Yahoo, could easily implement an option where pitchers are only eligible for the position they've been assigned. I don't know of any site that has such an option. So for fantasy purposes, there is no difference between an SP with RP eligibility and an OF with 3B eligibility. It doesn't matter that there's a difference in real baseball, and I think you argue this point all the time in other posts, that fantasy does not have to duplicate real baseball.

So, in summary, as far as I know the ONLY way to implement SP/RP positions and force pitchers to only be used in the role their playing is to add it to your league's constitution and force owners to be honest about it. By default, and in particular if there is no discussion about it, SPs in RP slots only require eligibility, just like OFs in 3B slots. This rule cannot be changed mid season and it is not a glitch.

BTW, you're backtracking. First you said it was a glitch and the first commenter's opinion was bush league. Now it seems you're agreeing with me but you don't want to admit it yet. :-D
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