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SP/RP dual eligibility

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SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby supadupaman8787 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:24 pm

My commish just outlawed using pitchers with SP/RP eligibility as relievers. He says this is a "blantant glitch" in the ESPN system. Just a poll as to which other systems (yahoo, sportsline, etc.) also allow SP in the RP spot if they have dual eligibility. I don't see how this is any different than playing Ryan Braun at 3B when he hasn't played there this year.

Thanks.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby Howie » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:17 pm

That is bush league. Who is he to determine how you use your own players? :-P That's up to ESPN to decide, not your snot-nosed "commish."
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby Matthias » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:58 pm

Howie wrote:That is bush league. Who is he to determine how you use your own players? :-P That's up to ESPN to decide, not your snot-nosed "commish."

BS. Your opinion is bush league.

I think SP/RP designations are a glitch and it's always up to each league to decide its own eligibility rules... just because ESPN or Yahoo! or whoever has their own rules doesn't mean you have to follow them.

SP/RP designations are different from 3B/OF for a couple of reasons...
1) If the Brewers wanted Braun to play third tonight, he could. If the Red Sox wanted Papelbon to start tonight, he couldn't.
2) Starting statistics, and ratios, are very different for starters vs. relievers. The only positional difference that has that severe of a difference is catcher vs. other positions.

To get rid of just of this stupid problem, my league is only Pitchers: no starters, no relievers.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby lilfrier » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:55 am

What about players like Sean Gallagher? He was a long relief guy to start, then became a starter. Then what about guys like B.J. Upton who are 2B-eligible because of LAST YEAR? It's the same issue with position players. Where do you draw the line? He either has to do ONLY positions played in the current year for ALL PLAYERS, or leave it alone.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby Bobbleheadrusty » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:20 am

Joba, Steve Trachsel, Matt Albers, Smoltz (well, attempted), Scherzer... Just off the top of my head guys that switched midseason, and there are probably dozens more thanks to team need/spot starts. If you want to say that a pitcher can only pitch in one designation thats fine, but how do you deal with those guys? Additionally, you can't adjust rules randomly mid season. If its a flaw that the league is exploiting it better be unanimous or change it next season. Teams make decisions at the draft based on the rules that are in place, and to change anything after that is completely unfair.

What if a guy opted to punt saves and grabs Myers and Billingsley to fill his RP slots? If you change the rules mid season he is suddenly boned.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby lilfrier » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:35 am

Yeah. I got Myers as my #3 RP in my league. He'll be a SP since I got Rafael Soriano now though.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby Matthias » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:19 am

lilfrier wrote:What about players like Sean Gallagher? He was a long relief guy to start, then became a starter. Then what about guys like B.J. Upton who are 2B-eligible because of LAST YEAR? It's the same issue with position players. Where do you draw the line? He either has to do ONLY positions played in the current year for ALL PLAYERS, or leave it alone.

Not true.

First, B.J. Upton could play second tonight if the Rays needed him to with no real difficulty whatsoever. There are a few relievers who stretch out to start: Gallagher is one, Gallaraga was another, Joba was a third, but generally if a reliever wants to start, they have to put him into a process of stretching him out, and it's not overnight. As I mentioned earlier, if the Red Sox wanted Papelbon to start, it would be a process of at least a month before he could. That's why you see minor-league callups for spot starts and not just handing the ball to someone in the bullpen most times.

Second, and more importantly, it's qualitatively different to put a starter who has an RP designation or a closer who has an SP designation into those slots than it is to put BJ Upton at second. The stats for relievers and starters aren't even the same, to start off with... starters are ineligible for saves and closers sometimes get a win, but rarely. And the type of the stats that they have in common are very different. Starters get higher K's, relievers have a much lower ERA and WHIP, relievers have a higher K/9 and a lower BB/9... they just really aren't the same type of thing. And if you design a scoring system, bearing in mind X starting pitchers and Y relievers, it can get screwed up by these pitchers who are at eligible at both.

So no, BJ Upton has nothing to do with the discussion. As far as, where do you draw the line? You draw the line right where he drew it: no dual-eligible pitchers. There's no slippery slope argument here.

As far as rules changes mid-season... the OP didn't ask about that. And there are some obvious flaws that you fix right away, which is why you have a commissioner (not that I think this is one of them; it's a pretty obvious and well-known one).
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby lilfrier » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:15 am

Yes, there is. The pitchers do, in fact, get more Ks, and they can't get saves. At the same time, the SPs only go once every five days. They only get more Ks in their start because they only go once, maybe twice, a week.

And how can you say that Upton doesn't matter? Just the process the Cubs had to take to switch Ronny Cedeno from SS to 2B took about a month.

The Sox moving Papelbon to a starter's irrelevant. Switching a guy built for 1-2 IP is different than a guy like Gallagher or Lieber who was meant to pitch 3-5 innings when there was an issue with the starter. Both of them were plugged right in. Joba's different because he was a 1-inning guy.

If you have someone like Gallagher, who someone in a deeper league held as their 3rd RP and had no backup guy, then what do they do? Do you force them to drop Gallagher, someone who is making quality starts behind a good offense, only to pickup a crappy middle reliever like Zach Miner? I can understand not allowing it in cases like Myers', but with long relievers, it's a lot different than with a Joba-type guy who went from short relief to starting. Teams have dual-eligible pitchers on their rosters called long relievers with the sole purpose of having them as a reliever or an emergency starter. That's the way it works in baseball, that's how it should be in fantasy...
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby noseeum » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:18 am

Matthias wrote:
lilfrier wrote:What about players like Sean Gallagher? He was a long relief guy to start, then became a starter. Then what about guys like B.J. Upton who are 2B-eligible because of LAST YEAR? It's the same issue with position players. Where do you draw the line? He either has to do ONLY positions played in the current year for ALL PLAYERS, or leave it alone.

Not true.

First, B.J. Upton could play second tonight if the Rays needed him to with no real difficulty whatsoever. There are a few relievers who stretch out to start: Gallagher is one, Gallaraga was another, Joba was a third, but generally if a reliever wants to start, they have to put him into a process of stretching him out, and it's not overnight. As I mentioned earlier, if the Red Sox wanted Papelbon to start, it would be a process of at least a month before he could. That's why you see minor-league callups for spot starts and not just handing the ball to someone in the bullpen most times.

Second, and more importantly, it's qualitatively different to put a starter who has an RP designation or a closer who has an SP designation into those slots than it is to put BJ Upton at second. The stats for relievers and starters aren't even the same, to start off with... starters are ineligible for saves and closers sometimes get a win, but rarely. And the type of the stats that they have in common are very different. Starters get higher K's, relievers have a much lower ERA and WHIP, relievers have a higher K/9 and a lower BB/9... they just really aren't the same type of thing. And if you design a scoring system, bearing in mind X starting pitchers and Y relievers, it can get screwed up by these pitchers who are at eligible at both.

So no, BJ Upton has nothing to do with the discussion. As far as, where do you draw the line? You draw the line right where he drew it: no dual-eligible pitchers. There's no slippery slope argument here.

As far as rules changes mid-season... the OP didn't ask about that. And there are some obvious flaws that you fix right away, which is why you have a commissioner (not that I think this is one of them; it's a pretty obvious and well-known one).


This is all well and good, but that does not mean SP/RP is a "glitch" as you said in your first post. ESPN and Yahoo are obviously aware the SPs can obtain RP eligibility. It's discussed in many strategy articles to take advantage of mult-eligibility pitchers. It's an option to use SP/RP or not.

I go your route, which is to only use a P position. But if you opt for using SP/RP, if I have an SP with RP eligibility, I have every right to put him there. The commish has no right to change this mid season. It's not a glitch, it's an intentional way to setup a league. If you don't like it, use P, but if you have it, you accept that there will be overlap and owners can leverage the opportunities it creates.
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Re: SP/RP dual eligibility

Postby Matthias » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:30 am

lilfrier wrote:Yes, there is. The pitchers do, in fact, get more Ks, and they can't get saves. At the same time, the SPs only go once every five days. They only get more Ks in their start because they only go once, maybe twice, a week.

Wha, wha, huh?!?!!
lilfrier wrote:And how can you say that Upton doesn't matter? Just the process the Cubs had to take to switch Ronny Cedeno from SS to 2B took about a month.

Because player can flip back and forth between position they currently know and positions they're currently played on a day-to-day basis. Heck, I think Inge has played everything except pitcher. But pitchers can't bounce between the bullpen and a starting role.
lilfrier wrote:The Sox moving Papelbon to a starter's irrelevant. Switching a guy built for 1-2 IP is different than a guy like Gallagher or Lieber who was meant to pitch 3-5 innings when there was an issue with the starter. Both of them were plugged right in. Joba's different because he was a 1-inning guy.

You prefer to talk about Brett Myers, who you guys were talking about before? He was the closer last year and he did have some 2-inning outings but for the most part he was a 1-inning guy.
lilfrier wrote:If you have someone like Gallagher, who someone in a deeper league held as their 3rd RP and had no backup guy, then what do they do? Do you force them to drop Gallagher, someone who is making quality starts behind a good offense, only to pickup a crappy middle reliever like Zach Miner? I can understand not allowing it in cases like Myers', but with long relievers, it's a lot different than with a Joba-type guy who went from short relief to starting. Teams have dual-eligible pitchers on their rosters called long relievers with the sole purpose of having them as a reliever or an emergency starter. That's the way it works in baseball, that's how it should be in fantasy...

OK.... I've heard about a million times the quote, "that's how it is in the MLB, that's how it should be in fantasy" and you know what? It's wrong. Do you have salaries in your fantasy league? Revenue numbers? Luxury taxes? Golden gloves? Arbitration? Park adjustments? A complete minor-league system? There's a million things that are in the MLB that don't make it over to fantasy so just arbitrarily picking one is no support whatsoever.

As far as what someone should do with Gallagher, what they should do is play Gallagher whereever he is being played by the Tigers. If he's long relief, put him in an RP spot. If he is starting, put him at SP. If he gets sent back to the bullpen, then use him as an RP again. It's pretty simple.
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