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Veto worthy trade?

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Veto worthy trade?

Postby Bwanna » Tue May 27, 2008 3:01 pm

12-team H2H 6x6 (5x5+OPS,Holds) Keeper (keep 4-7). The following trade was made and then vetoed by league votes.

Team A gives:
Miguel Tejada (Hou - SS)
Jason Bay (Pit - LF)
Brandon Lyon (Ari - RP)


to Team B for:
Jimmy Rollins (Phi - SS)
Carlos Lee (Hou - LF)


I was not one of the teams involved, but was curious what folks thought about whether this trade should have been vetoed. I'll give you my thoughts after (hopefully) some of your opinions.

Also, would you as a league member make a decision to veto/not veto this deal solely based on the players involved, or would you consider the teams' rosters and/or teams' current standings as well? Why or why not?

Again, I'll share rosters/standings after some discussion. Thanks! ;D
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Re: Veto worthy trade?

Postby The Loveable Losers » Tue May 27, 2008 3:24 pm

If I suspected collusion or some other form of cheating I would veto the deal. Other than that, no way I veto this. Obviously Rollins is better than Tejada and most people would also say that Lee is better than Bay. That said, Tejada and Bay have FAR outproduced Rollins/Lee this year.

Tejada/Bay: .314/77/17/61/9
Rollins/Lee: .292/43/14/60/10

Now I can see two groups of people that would veto this trade out of pure motives. The 'last year's stats' group that have pronounced Tejada and Bay as dead and haven't noticed that they've both been productive this year (or simply write this year off as luck) could say that this deal is a rip-off and that Lyon isn't nearly enough to offset the difference. The 'this year's stats' group on the other hand would look at what Tejada and Bay have done, ignore the fact that Rollins was hurt which accounts for the gap in counting stats, and say this is a rip-off the other direction. Both groups are wrong. The point is that we don't have a crystal ball and while people may feel strongly about one side or the other being better this isn't a clear thing either way. At one point a couple years ago Rollins + Lee wouldn't have gotten close to touching Tejada and Bay. True, Tejada and Bay had some down years but who's to say that they haven't gotten back on track. Neither one is ridiculously old so it's certainly possible. If I had to choose I'd rather have the Rollins/Lee end but that's not the question. The question is whether owners should be allowed to make their own choices about which players they'd prefer to have. I think there's no question that they should.
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Re: Veto worthy trade?

Postby Bobbleheadrusty » Tue May 27, 2008 3:27 pm

Obviously keeper value and position need comes in to play on this deal, but while its not the best deal I don't think it merits a veto.
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Re: Veto worthy trade?

Postby jake_harv88 » Tue May 27, 2008 4:17 pm

Thats probably one of the closest trades I've seen dance on the veto/non-veto line. But because it is so close on the line I would go with a non-veto. When I reach for the veto it has to be blatantly obvious to me and this one made me stop and thing....
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Re: Veto worthy trade?

Postby Bwanna » Tue May 27, 2008 4:27 pm

Thanks guys... Also, would you as a league member make a decision to veto/not veto this deal solely based on the players involved, or would you consider the teams' rosters and/or teams' current standings as well? Why or why not?
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Re: Veto worthy trade?

Postby Bobbleheadrusty » Tue May 27, 2008 4:45 pm

The only time current rosters come in to play for me is when someone looks to be dumping, especially in a keeper league.
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Re: Veto worthy trade?

Postby The Loveable Losers » Tue May 27, 2008 4:45 pm

Bwanna wrote:Thanks guys... Also, would you as a league member make a decision to veto/not veto this deal solely based on the players involved, or would you consider the teams' rosters and/or teams' current standings as well? Why or why not?


Team needs (ie whether Lyon is critical to them or not) sure. I don't know if I'd care about the standings just because this is more a 'who do you like better' sort of deal than a 'future or present value' deal. Bay is 2 years younger than Carlos Lee. Tejada is 4 years older than Rollins but at least it's a real 4 years. ;) So I guess you could argue that the person getting Bay/Tejada is getting older but it's not by a ton...2 years younger in the OF for 4 years older at SS. Given that this isn't a clear upgrade/downgrade keepers deal and more of an opinion on the players involved deal then the only reason I would care about the teams' current standings would be if their reasoning for making the deal was the current standings (ie the person getting Rollins/Lee is doing so because they're playing for the future and they still think Bay/Tejada are toast).
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Re: Veto worthy trade?

Postby OneLoveBoomer » Tue May 27, 2008 6:11 pm

If you have a collusion-only veto rule, then no.

If you have a horrendously lopsided deal veto rule, then yes.
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Re: Veto worthy trade?

Postby Bwanna » Tue May 27, 2008 9:16 pm

Thanks all.

I didn't vote against the trade for some of the reasons TLL stated above. This trade was vetoed (in less than 24 hours I think), due to the number of 'No' votes, which surprised and disappointed me. The owner receiving Lee and Rollins would end up with these guys on his roster:

Howard
ARod
Rollins
Lee
Pujols

Granted, this significantly improved his team for this season and next, but I wasn't going to punish the guy for negotiating a good deal, in spite of his resulting team.
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Re: Veto worthy trade?

Postby sportsguy138 » Tue May 27, 2008 9:30 pm

Don't see why this should be vetoed. Looks fine to me.
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