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liriano situation

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liriano situation

Postby ischuldt » Mon May 26, 2008 5:02 pm

I'm running a fantasy baseball keeper league with a 5 player minor league system. The rules are that as long as a player would be eligable to win the rookie of the year trophy if he was in the majors, he is considered minor league eligable. If a player begins the season with minor league eligibility, he has it for the full year. We also have two DL spots allowed on our major league roster , but players must officially be on the DL in real life to qualify.

The problem is I have Liriano on my team. Technically he doesn't have rookie eligibility so I can't send him down. He is also not technically on the DL so I can't put him there either.

If you were running a league like this, how would you handle the situation? Would you allow the team with liriano to send him down to the minors, allow the team to put him on the DL, or make the owner keep liriano on his active roster and waste a spot? Why would you do it that way? and Where could i find a standard set of rules for this situation if they exist?
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Re: liriano situation

Postby noseeum » Mon May 26, 2008 5:52 pm

I would make the owner either keep him on his active roster or drop him. The reason? Because that's what the rules say. Exactly as you said, he's not minor league eligible, and he's not on the DL.

In fact, in one of my league's with no bench, I had to drop Liriano for the same reason.

If you attempt to make exceptions, you're opening a can of worms. For simplicity's sake, you defer to official DL listings and you stick with your minor league rule as is. It's the only fair thing to do, and it's the right thing to do.
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Re: liriano situation

Postby ischuldt » Mon May 26, 2008 6:36 pm

what I'm trying to say though is how would you amend the rules to take care of this situation. This is the second year of our league and we are kind of doing things are own way and making the rules up as we go along. Understandably that's not exactly the best way to go about things, but we've always been the kind of people that do things a little different.

I'm just saying if we would have thought of this ahead of time, what would have been the typical way it's handled. I just figure in the second year of a 5 year keeper league a manager can't really drop a player with Liriano's potential, but it's almost too detrimental to his team to keep him as a dead roster spot. If there is a way for the major league team to option a player like liriano to the minors, and we have a minor league system I would think it would make sense to allow the fantasy league team to do something similar.

The thing is we want our minor league system to be reserved mainly for up coming prospects so we don't want it full of guys like roger clemens either. So I was thinking in order to avoid the minor league system it might make sense to just allow a team to put a player like that on the DL (assuming they have an open DL spot), possibly even make them pay the players salary while he's on their too. (normally if you put a player on the DL, his salary doesn't count against your overall cap.)

I want to make this league as realistic as possible, so my feeling is if it can be done in the Majors, there should be some type of similar move that can't be made on here. I'm just wondering how you would write a rule for this situation if it was your league.
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Re: liriano situation

Postby Matthias » Tue May 27, 2008 12:05 am

ischuldt wrote:If there is a way for the major league team to option a player like liriano to the minors, and we have a minor league system I would think it would make sense to allow the fantasy league team to do something similar.

I don't think that's really true. There's plenty of things in the MLB that make no appearance in fantasy baseball.

What you're really trying to do is make something fit where it doesn't belong. I just wouldn't mess with it, to be honest with you.
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Re: liriano situation

Postby ischuldt » Tue May 27, 2008 1:39 am

Obviously you can't mirror everything in real baseball to fantasy baseball, but to me the idea of fantasy baseball is to give regular people the ability to see who would make the best general manager of a major league baseball team. The idea being that if my friends and I could control an actual major league team and make all the decisions that a regular GM has to make, who would be the best. There's certain things you change to make it more fun, like redraft teams every year and what not, but I think if you're trying to make the most realistic league possible then if a move that can be made in MLB can be made in a similar way in Fantasy, I would think we should give teams the option to make that move.
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Re: liriano situation

Postby noseeum » Tue May 27, 2008 1:50 am

Matthias wrote:
ischuldt wrote:If there is a way for the major league team to option a player like liriano to the minors, and we have a minor league system I would think it would make sense to allow the fantasy league team to do something similar.

I don't think that's really true. There's plenty of things in the MLB that make no appearance in fantasy baseball.

What you're really trying to do is make something fit where it doesn't belong. I just wouldn't mess with it, to be honest with you.


Agreed. In MLB, you're either in the minors or you're not. So if you want it like that, anyone on a minor league roster can be on yours. Anyone in the majors must be in the majors. But that's not what you have. You want the flexibility of leaving a guy in the minors if he's been called up. And you don't want a veteran who's just doing some rehab starts on a minor league roster, like Clemens, say.

So you're already not duplicating what MLB does. In fact, you name Roger Clemens as a guy you don't want on a minor league roster. What's the difference between Liriano and Clemens? Nothing. They're both veterans.

You don't make rule based on individual cases. You make rules to support the vast majority of cases. To me, this boils down to "this sucks I have to use a roster spot to keep Liriano. How can I get out of that?" I don't mean to ridicule you, but really, if someone else owned him, I'm sure you'd see it's pretty simple. The guy's a vet, and he's not on the DL. He's either a free agent, or he's on your roster, plain and simple.

Decisions like this are exactly why FLB is cool. Does it make sense to hold him or drop him? Will he reward you in the second half or not? I don't know, but put your chips down and make your bet. Don't try to make things easier. Enjoy the challenge.
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Re: liriano situation

Postby ischuldt » Tue May 27, 2008 1:47 pm

well i think it's kind of silly to consider liriano a veteran when he hasn't even played one full season. In the majors the rules are that until a player has spent 3 seasons in the majors, that player can be optioned to the minors, but once they have three years of experience they have to clear waivers.

When I say we don't really want players like clemens, I just mean we don't want people with an extra minor spot to just throw some retired guy like bonds on there or clemens on their in the hopes he might come back some day. actually I wouldn't even mind if someone did that. to me if you are willing to use up one of your DL spots or minor league spots on a player like that I say so be it.

The fun of fantasy baseball isn't being forced into a lose lose situation, it's being able to make the same types of decisions that real managers have to make, and seeing who's the best at it. In real life MLB realizes that it's dumb to force a team in to a decision like that for a player like liriano, so they have a rule in place to give them a more realistic "option." If you are trying to make a league that is as realistic as it can be, I would think having a rule similar to that would be good. And I'm not just saying that cause i'm the guy with liriano, we had another team that got put in a similar position with saltalamachia. It happened to ervin santana last year, and josh fields also.
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Re: liriano situation

Postby Matthias » Tue May 27, 2008 3:00 pm

The problem, really, is that you don't have a clear idea of how you want your league to work other than you don't want to keep Liriano active and you don't want to drop him.

Your league rules are clear about when someone is DL-eligible; when they're placed on the DL by their major-league teams (most leagues are the same).

Your league rules are clear about when someone is Minor League-eligible; when they can still win the RoY (most leagues are the same).

But now you don't like those rules and think it's "silly" to consider Liriano a veteran. It's not silly. He is a veteran as opposed to rookies.

You don't want your league to be using your minors to stash guys like Clemens; you think it's fine to use the minors to stash guys like Clemens.

You want your league to be as "realistic as can be" but I bet you don't factor in defense. I bet you don't have a salary cap. I bet you have at least five All Stars a team. I bet you have multiple closers on your team. I bet you have multiple starters starting the same day. I bet you don't deduct 3 Stolen Bases for every Caught Stealing. I bet you don't adequately reward middle relief. I bet there's a million things that you could do but that you don't do if you wanted to make it as, "realistic as can be."

Try implementing your rule of giving players 3 years of options: see how long it takes (my guess, days) before someone starts complaining that Ryan Braun, Felix Hernandez, and Hanley Ramirez, or whoever are being stashed in the minors because the owner's other DL spots are full or just because the owner wants to for whatever reason.

You're starting with a very rare occurrence and trying to design a general rule to fit around it. Just don't.
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Re: liriano situation

Postby StlSluggers » Tue May 27, 2008 3:55 pm

My league has a similar set up insomuch as it's got a very open-ended definition of minors players. However, our league does not allow any additions to the minors roster outside of the minors draft. It's too hairy to try and do otherwise.

So what is the Liriano owner in our league doing with him? He's keeping him on his active roster.
Why is he doing that? Because we have 25 slots, which is more than enough to provide for someone to keep and hold a weird situation like this.

My suggestion? If this is really a big concern to you, expand your rosters by a slot or two. Owners can do whatever they want with the extra depth, including stashing guys that fall in weird, gray areas.

;-D
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Re: liriano situation

Postby PujolsJunkie » Thu May 29, 2008 2:09 pm

I see no reason to not have Bench spots.
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