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DUSTY BAKER.....REALLY DUDE?

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Re: DUSTY BAKER.....REALLY DUDE?

Postby hot4tx » Tue May 27, 2008 11:39 am

In 3 years Harang will be the closer and Volquez and Cueto will be setup men because for some reason they just can't seem to stay healthy as starters anymore. :-D
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Re: DUSTY BAKER.....REALLY DUDE?

Postby bigh0rt » Tue May 27, 2008 12:01 pm

Russell James wrote:I understand what you guys are saying, but there is no way I am marching out my stud young pitcher to pitch that inning.

So are you bringing out Harang for a 5th then, or going to Cueto? I don't recall, but I don't think there were any position players even left available on the bench; but provided there were, would you throw one of them on the mount over the other 2 options?

chipper wrote:What land do you all come from where a guy's "throw day" is 40 hours after a start?
Man I wish Sportscenter never talked about "throw days", now everyone thinks they're a pitching coach.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Repetition and insults are no way to try and convince people you're right... :-° I can tell you 2 + 2 is 5 all day long, and call you a moron for not agreeing with me; but that doesn't make it so. That seems to be what you're doing here. I'll say it again -- if it were that clear cut an issue, there would be a lot less people who disagree with you, people who generally agree that Dusty isn't a top quality manager to begin with (like myself). It's nice to be told that I need to be 'educated' though.
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Re: DUSTY BAKER.....REALLY DUDE?

Postby ROC AllStars » Tue May 27, 2008 12:12 pm

The whole point at this point is that almost everyone who has posted here falls into one of three camps:

1. Dusty Baker made a mistake putting Volquez in the game
2. In the context of the game, Dusty Baker made the right decision in putting Volquez in to pitch.
3. It doesn't really matter, the past is the past, lets move on.

Your stance on 1 or 2 is not indicative of your full acceptance or full denial of Dusty Baker's managerial skills. We are concentrating here on this one decision.

So, in the interests of saving everyone lots of typing, I propose that from here on out we run this thread as a democratic vote. Vote for position 1, 2, or 3, and at some point we'll tally up the count and let the reader interpret the results as they please.

I vote for #2.
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Re: DUSTY BAKER.....REALLY DUDE?

Postby chipper » Tue May 27, 2008 12:33 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
Russell James wrote:I understand what you guys are saying, but there is no way I am marching out my stud young pitcher to pitch that inning.

So are you bringing out Harang for a 5th then, or going to Cueto? I don't recall, but I don't think there were any position players even left available on the bench; but provided there were, would you throw one of them on the mount over the other 2 options?

I think he's made it pretty clear he thinks Volquez shouldn't have even been an option.

bigh0rt wrote:
chipper wrote:What land do you all come from where a guy's "throw day" is 40 hours after a start?
Man I wish Sportscenter never talked about "throw days", now everyone thinks they're a pitching coach.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

How. Is. That.

Everyone's heard about "throw days", but people are misinterpreting them to mean....like a day and half after a guy's made a start. It's just foolish. If someone doesn't tell them pitchers (especially young pitchers) are not supposed to be throwing game velocity 40 hours after a start, then they are just going to go on thinking it.

bigh0rt wrote:-- if it were that clear cut an issue, there would be a lot less people who disagree with you,

Don't agree with that. There will always be uninformed people ready to argue.
From most of your other post Big0rt, I actually thought you'd be on board with not doing something to jepordize a young arm for a single game in May. I respect your opinions greatly, and would in no way want to insult you.....then again, you are not throwing around hilarious cliches like "you play to win the game" and "he's not in Little League anymore, he can handle it."

Things like that make fun of themselves.....I'm just pointing them out.
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Re: DUSTY BAKER.....REALLY DUDE?

Postby bigh0rt » Tue May 27, 2008 12:43 pm

chipper wrote: bigh0rt wrote:

Russell James wrote:I understand what you guys are saying, but there is no way I am marching out my stud young pitcher to pitch that inning.


So are you bringing out Harang for a 5th then, or going to Cueto? I don't recall, but I don't think there were any position players even left available on the bench; but provided there were, would you throw one of them on the mount over the other 2 options?


I think he's made it pretty clear he thinks Volquez shouldn't have even been an option.

Fortunately, I'm not asking him who he doesn't think should have been an option. I want to know which option he would have gone with.

chipper wrote:Don't agree with that. There will always be uninformed people ready to argue.

But you're not getting uninformed arguments, here. You are being presented with rational alternative explanations, and you're simply choosing to dismiss them because they are contrary to what you believe.

chipper wrote:From most of your other post Big0rt, I actually thought you'd be on board with not doing something to jepordize a young arm for a single game in May.

A Win in May is equal to a Win in September, statistically. If you want to say it's less valuable because it's May, then you have to accept that it's more valuable because they fought for 18 innings. Either all wins are created equal, or it's a two way street.

You are acting as if Dusty brought him in in the 7th of a game where they were down 3, as I said before. The game went 18 innings. No manager, none, account for that possibility. It's so unlikely that they'd almost be foolish to. Again, the options were Harang, Volquez, Cueto, or a position player (which I don't think was available). At the end of this game, Dusty was getting lambasted by some no matter what. Either he was a dummy for extending his 'Ace' a 5th inning and abusing his arm, or he was throwing his other 'future Ace of the franchise' Cueto on an off-day, potentially damaging his arm, or if he threw a position player if one was available, he's lambasted for not trying to win the game and leaving potential bullets in the chamber. He was in a Lose/Lose/Lose situation; a rock a hard place, and all that jazz. There was no call he could have made at that point in the game that wouldn't have drawn harsh ridicule, based on decisions he's made in the past.

That seems to be being ignored, here.
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Re: DUSTY BAKER.....REALLY DUDE?

Postby chipper » Tue May 27, 2008 12:55 pm

bigh0rt wrote:Fortunately, I'm not asking him who he doesn't think should have been an option. I want to know which option he would have gone with.

Not.....Volquez.....
Whatever other option there is. He made that clear, and that was my point.

Look, just because you are faced with a difficult situation, it doesn't mean you have to make a decision that may hurt you down the road. Right?

bigh0rt wrote:A Win in May is equal to a Win in September, statistically.

Right, but my whole point is NO WIN is worth potentially hurting a young arm...I've made that abuntanly clear....why the same question over and over?


bigh0rt wrote:He was in a Lose/Lose/Lose situation; a rock a hard place, and all that jazz.

Right, and he chose the one that would save his butt in the short term, but may prove to be hazardous to the long term benefit of the franchise. You know all this. I know all this.
It was a typical Dusty Baker bad decision :-?

bigh0rt wrote:There was no call he could have made at that point in the game that wouldn't have drawn harsh ridicule, based on decisions he's made in the past.

That seems to be being ignored, here.

No one's ignoring that. I definitely haven't. I've said....sometimes you just have to look at the situation for what it is, and move on.

It doesn't change the situation, and I very much doubt Baker would have "drawn harsh ridicule" for not throwing his young stud pitcher who had made a start less than 2 days earlier. I don't believe you think that for a minute. :-°
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Re: DUSTY BAKER.....REALLY DUDE?

Postby chipper » Tue May 27, 2008 1:10 pm

Look, no doubt it was a tough situation. All I'm saying is he made the worst possible decision he could have made. I'm done with it, no one is going to convince the other side.
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Re: DUSTY BAKER.....REALLY DUDE?

Postby jnormy » Tue May 27, 2008 1:25 pm

chipper wrote:Right, but my whole point is NO WIN is worth potentially hurting a young arm...I've made that abuntanly clear....why the same question over and over?


The bigger question is, if NO win is worth hurting a young arm, why is Baker raked over the coals for making Volquez throw 131 pitches in 3 days while Terry Francona gets a free pass for allowing Lester to throw 130 pitches in ONE day?

I realize a no-hitter is a unique circumstance and all, but so is an 18-inning game when you're almost all out of options. And since when is Volquez suddenly Johan Santana? The guy looks great so far this year, but that doesn't completely erase the command problems he's had the past several years. I don't think it's a no-brainer that he's more valuable than Harang or even necessarily Cueto just yet.

No doubt Baker has his faults, but I agree with the previous poster who said Dusty would've been vilified no matter what decision he made in this case. He had to make a snap decision in an unusual situation, and many managers would have done the exact same thing.
Last edited by jnormy on Tue May 27, 2008 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DUSTY BAKER.....REALLY DUDE?

Postby bdrotoronto » Tue May 27, 2008 1:30 pm

jnormy wrote:He had to make a snap decision in an unusual situation, and many managers would have done the exact same thing.

I'd go further than that, and say that I can't think of any MLB manager who would actually put a position player in to pitch the 17th inning of a tie game, unless he was literally out of other options. It is just not something you can justify to your players and the fans when you're playing at a professional level.

chipper wrote:
mweir145 wrote:And how would the players actually in the game, working hard to maintain a tie, feel?
Sorry, this is baseball. You play to win the game.

Ok Herm!
Don't you guys ever get tired of your cliches?

Since when is the idea that a professional team plays games to win a cliche?.. :-?
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Re: DUSTY BAKER.....REALLY DUDE?

Postby bigh0rt » Tue May 27, 2008 1:41 pm

chipper wrote:Look, no doubt it was a tough situation. All I'm saying is he made the worst possible decision he could have made. I'm done with it, no one is going to convince the other side.

I'm not sure if you've said or not, and apologies if you have already, but bear with me and repeat yourself if that's the case.

Who are you pitching in the 18th?

a) Harang, your current Ace, for his 5th inning of the day, who had thrown 63 pitches already, and 166 in the last 3 days?
b) Cueto, future Ace, who had thrown 114 pitches 4 days prior, and was supposed to start the following day?

It actually appears from the game log, that Dusty was out of bench bats, as well, so throwing one of them out there as an option c) seems out the window, as well.

IIRC, you had said you'd throw Cueto and then call someone up to start the next day (I realized that while typing it); but is it not as important to keep your true future Ace on schedule and not throw him out of the pen on short rest? I assure you had Dusty put Cueto in there on short rest, having thrown 114 in his last start, people would've been freaking out, citing him being short sighted because Volquez is out-performing Cueto right now, and losing sight that Cueto is their actual future Ace, 22 years old, so on and so forth.
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