As for the Renteria trade... That deal was made prior to Dombrowski even getting a whiff of being able to get M-Cab. In hindsight I'm sure Dombrowski may have simply made the second deal to bring M-Cab to Detroit and left Guillen at SS for the time being but he was improving the team at the time and we still had Andrew Miller in the wings... So, giving up Jurrjens hurts... But moving a reliability in the field in Guillen to 1B and placing a 5 Time All-Star SS on your team seems like a pretty solid move to me.
Bloody Sox wrote:Well, you didn't need hindsight to know that the Tigers needed pitching, not hitting going into this year. Trading Miller and Jurrjens seemed silly at the time when they were only adding offense (and a pretty useless D-Train).
What has Miller done so far? He was universally rated higher than Jurrjens prior to the season. They were both prospects and no one knew how they would perform. Jurrjens could still fall apart. It's a long season.
I'm not blaming the Tigers for not knowing how Miller and Jurrjens would pan out, but when you need pitching you don't trade away MLB ready pitching prospects for hitting because as you said, you just don't know.
see...that's the thing...i dont think they felt pitching was a need at the time they made those deals
Giving up anything much for Willis was a foolhardy move, and this was evident to some people when the trade happened. Even if he had not been hurt, he would have sucked (and he will suck moving forward). He is simply not a top 50 MLB starting pitcher. It was easy to criticize the Tigers at the time and it is fair to criticize them in retrospect.
Trying to install that fatso Cabrera as their long-term 3B solution was ill-considered as well, although I suspect they saw the risk here, which is why they kept Inge.
Even so, the deal does not stink that badly. Miller is a mess and there is a good chance he never puts it together.
As for the Atlanta deal, I think this is tougher to criticize. The season is still young and we will need to see that Jurrjen's statline looks like come October. I suspect his ERA will still be solid but a lot higher than it is now.
Detroit was playing to win in 2008, and they made reasonble moves based on this presumption (WIllis specifically aside).
Bloody Sox wrote:I'm not blaming the Tigers for not knowing how Miller and Jurrjens would pan out, but when you need pitching you don't trade away MLB ready pitching prospects for hitting because as you said, you just don't know.
see...that's the thing...i dont think they felt pitching was a need at the time they made those deals
If that's true, then I think even less of them. A planned rotation of Verlander, Bonderman, Rogers, Willis, and Robertson was obviously terrible (not to mention old and very injury prone). And that's not even getting into the bullpen situation.
"The government cannot give to anyone anything that it does not first take from someone else"
Bloody Sox wrote:I'm not blaming the Tigers for not knowing how Miller and Jurrjens would pan out, but when you need pitching you don't trade away MLB ready pitching prospects for hitting because as you said, you just don't know.
see...that's the thing...i dont think they felt pitching was a need at the time they made those deals
If that's true, then I think even less of them. A planned rotation of Verlander, Bonderman, Rogers, Willis, and Robertson was obviously terrible (not to mention old and very injury prone). And that's not even getting into the bullpen situation.
well...they were clearly trying to win with offense
i still think Verlander will be a perennial Cy Young contender, as for the other 4, they all have their issues but the arent exactly bums either...on most nights they should be able to give you a quality start and with that offense they put together (on paper) that should be enough
as for the pen, that's hardly their biggest issue right now
I was p*ssed off the minute I heard about that Jurjjens deal on the way home from work that day. I watch pretty much every Tigers game. It was obvious that Jurjjens was the Tigers best pitcher at the end of last year (from the time he entered the show). The guy knows how to pitch. I get sick and tired of hearing about "stuff" (Verlander). Using a different sport as an example, Kyle Bollar could throw a football through the uprights from his knees. Does that make him a great QB? Hell no. Pitching is tons more then "stuff". Jurjjens is a pitcher. He knows what he's doing on the mound. Verlander doesn't have a clue and just throws the ball while having absolutely no clue most of the time as to where it will end up when it hits the catchers glove. Kind of got side tracked a bit, but the Jerjjens trade is going to sting for a while. After watching Renteria, I'd say his range is maybe a 1/8 step more then Guillen and Guillen is a better hitter. Still trying to figure out what the thought process was on this move.
all i knew about jurrjens at the time of the trade was watching his start v the rangers from that year, and that was plenty to wonder why they would trade him when their offense looked to be fine already.
dillpickle wrote:I was p*ssed off the minute I heard about that Jurjjens deal on the way home from work that day. I watch pretty much every Tigers game. It was obvious that Jurjjens was the Tigers best pitcher at the end of last year (from the time he entered the show). The guy knows how to pitch. I get sick and tired of hearing about "stuff" (Verlander). Using a different sport as an example, Kyle Bollar could throw a football through the uprights from his knees. Does that make him a great QB? Hell no. Pitching is tons more then "stuff". Jurjjens is a pitcher. He knows what he's doing on the mound. Verlander doesn't have a clue and just throws the ball while having absolutely no clue most of the time as to where it will end up when it hits the catchers glove. Kind of got side tracked a bit, but the Jerjjens trade is going to sting for a while. After watching Renteria, I'd say his range is maybe a 1/8 step more then Guillen and Guillen is a better hitter. Still trying to figure out what the thought process was on this move.
I understand what you're saying but I really think you're discounting Verlander based on his poor start to 2008. I think it's way too early in the season to say that he doesn't know how to pitch effectively.
DSheppard wrote:all i knew about jurrjens at the time of the trade was watching his start v the rangers from that year, and that was plenty to wonder why they would trade him when their offense looked to be fine already.
I agree. I want to also mention the chemistry aspect of the trade. Alot of the talking heads lately have been saying it doesn't matter that much, but I think it is very important. Some of Leyland's comments about the players the past few days seems to back that up.
"You're saying it wasn't fair to have expectations? What are you talking about?" Leyland asked rhetorically. "I'm a grown man. I can take my heat, and I deserve some for the performance of this club. But you better be careful when you're a player. If you're hitting .200 and .220 and striking out, you shouldn't be popping off."
Leyland did not specify any players by name.
"They want to play games, I'll play games. I'll quit protecting some of these guys night after night after night after night. And I'll put some names to it."
By Larry Lage, AP Sports Writer
If anyone can whip this team into shape it's Leyland, he' the man. I just feel sorry for the Yankees. It's gonna be a train wreck with Girardi in charge, he is no Joe Torre. Not to bash the Yankees, just seems like a similar situation. Tigers are trying to be Yankees Midwest.
I think Verlander is one of the most overrated pitchers out there. Just look at his FIP, even in a great year like last year it was 4.00 and the year before it was 4.35.
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by BrettCB » Thu May 22, 2008 10:36 am 
