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Delgado Robbed - It's time for instant replay

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Re: Delgado Robbed - It's time for instant replay

Postby Tavish » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:44 pm

Maris09 wrote:
Tavish wrote:We haven't seen much more than a rough outline of how it might possibly work

Right, so how can we have this tremendous downside then?

In the same way as IR is as perfect as we can get?
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Re: Delgado Robbed - It's time for instant replay

Postby CBMGreatOne » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:43 pm

Instant Replay for HRs would involve umpires looking at about .2 calls per game, at most. There just aren't many HR calls that are inconclusive. HRs are key plays in a game, why not take advantage of the footage available?

I am NOT in the camp that believes that Instant Replay has failed to help with the accuracy of calls in other sports. For every call that is missed because of instant replay, there are probably 7 or 8 calls that are corrected because of instant replay.

Using football as an example, I'd say my biggest objections to replay reviewed calls are when referees fail to reverse an obvious (in my opinion) incorrect call. It is very rare that they get a call wrong by reversing a correct call because they looked at it again (though I admit it has happened--- I'm thinking Colts/Steelers playoff game Polamalu INT.)

Again, officiating is never going to be perfect, but if we can take a situation where we're only getting 50% of certain calls right to a situation where we're getting 90% of those calls right, at the cost of 90 seconds every fifth or sixth baseball game, then by all means let's do it. Of course the MLB, umpires, and probably the majority of the players agree with this sentiment, hence the hasty implementation of IR midseason.

As far as where to draw the line with replay, I'm not exactly sure. Here are the scenarios I'd be willing to subject to review in descending order:

HR/Foul calls (obviously needs to happen)
Fair/Foul calls on balls in play (should be pretty easy, and not much of a disruption)
Catch/Trap fly ball outs (usually pretty conclusive at first glance on a replay, but could be trickier)
Safe/Out on the basepaths (getting a bit subjective, would have to underline the part of the rules where it says there must be CONCLUSIVE evidence to overturn the call on the field.)

Even if we implemented all 4 of these replay situations, there would still only be about 60-90 seconds of delay once every game or two, but I certainly wouldn't advocate going directly from no replay to replay in all of the above scenarios.

As for balls and strikes (where anti-replayers usually want to take this argument even though it's a total strawman), these are just way too subjective and could never be subject to replay. There is not one person in their right mind who would think this was manageable and it really ought to be banned from reference in the discussion.
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Re: Delgado Robbed - It's time for instant replay

Postby Maris09 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:56 am

Tavish wrote:
Maris09 wrote:
Tavish wrote:We haven't seen much more than a rough outline of how it might possibly work

Right, so how can we have this tremendous downside then?

In the same way as IR is as perfect as we can get?

Ohhh you and your riddles. :-b


CBMGreatOne wrote:Again, officiating is never going to be perfect, but if we can take a situation where we're only getting 50% of certain calls right to a situation where we're getting 90% of those calls right, at the cost of 90 seconds every fifth or sixth baseball game, then by all means let's do it.

Amen.
There is really no logical argument against that exact phrasing.

CBMGreatOne wrote:Of course the MLB, umpires, and probably the majority of the players agree with this sentiment, hence the hasty implementation of IR midseason.

Bingo ;-D

CBMGreatOne wrote:Fair/Foul calls on balls in play (should be pretty easy, and not much of a disruption)
Catch/Trap fly ball outs (usually pretty conclusive at first glance on a replay, but could be trickier)
Safe/Out on the basepaths (getting a bit subjective, would have to underline the part of the rules where it says there must be CONCLUSIVE evidence to overturn the call on the field.)

Mmmm, I don't know about all that man. That raises the usage quite a bit per game.
I'd keep it for only homeruns and fair/foul calls.

That way the game gets to keep the subjective view from the umpires (on plays they can actually see).
Last edited by Maris09 on Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Delgado Robbed - It's time for instant replay

Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:59 am

CBMGreatOne wrote:As far as where to draw the line with replay, I'm not exactly sure. Here are the scenarios I'd be willing to subject to review in descending order:

HR/Foul calls (obviously needs to happen)
Fair/Foul calls on balls in play (should be pretty easy, and not much of a disruption)
Catch/Trap fly ball outs (usually pretty conclusive at first glance on a replay, but could be trickier)
Safe/Out on the basepaths (getting a bit subjective, would have to underline the part of the rules where it says there must be CONCLUSIVE
evidence to overturn the call on the field.)

Even if we implemented all 4 of these replay situations, there would still only be about 60-90 seconds of delay once every game or two, but I certainly wouldn't advocate going directly from no replay to replay in all of the above scenarios.

As for balls and strikes (where anti-replayers usually want to take this argument even though it's a total strawman), these are just way too subjective and could never be subject to replay. There is not one person in their right mind who would think this was manageable and it really ought to be banned from reference in the discussion.


HR/Foul: I agree. Instant Replay can be quickly and easily implemented there.

Fair/Foul on balls in play: Not sure. These calls are really really easy for the most part. Umps missed something like 3 calls total last year on fair/foul balls in play. Also, if a ball is called foul and then is overturned to be fair, where do you place the runners? It becomes an umpire's guess really. So I would say no, only becomes it's not that necessary, and because you have the problem outlined above.

Catch/Trap: I hate this idea. This is a huge problem because the catch/trap call completely changes the play from the standpoint of any baserunners. This means that all baserunners would have to be "set" by the umpire; another "umpire's guess".

Safe/Out on basepaths: There are a few problems here. The first is plays like the "vicinity play" at second base. Everyone knows that on a double play, the SS/2B rarely actually touches second base while holding the ball. If we actually started to review this, you would have problems with this play. We also would have a lot of "inconclusive" calls which would take a lot of time to decide on. I don't like this idea, but I don't hate it as much as the catch/trap either...
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Re: Delgado Robbed - It's time for instant replay

Postby CBMGreatOne » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:48 am

Sure, but that's why I listed them in descending order. I, like the others here, would only like to see replay implemented for HRs at first, but I was merely listing all the options that I wouldn't dismiss out of hand as totally unacceptable. I hadn't thought extensively about the fact that the ump would have to place the players on the basepaths in the event of the catch/trap and fair/foul calls, but even so, as the game continues to evolve, I don't think it's necessary to utterly dismiss the idea that these four situations might be reviewed under certain circumstances.

In any case, there are already situations where the ump is placing baserunners, like when defenders are ruled to have obstructed the basepaths etc.

As an example, with nobody on and two outs in a 1 run game late, if the replay shows that a ball hit into the outfield that was ruled a catch was discovered conclusively to be a trap, this would be relatively easy to correct. Again, there are so few instances where one of these calls is legitimately blown that I could see the review not being a terribly intrusive issue, but like I said, we're not going to go directly from no replay to replay for everything but balls and strikes.
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Re: Delgado Robbed - It's time for instant replay

Postby Tavish » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:53 am

Maris09 wrote:Ohhh you and your riddles. :-b


Sorry, I wasn't trying to be cryptic. But if after 20+ pages we are right back to saying "I'm not ignoring any arguments" then following that up with "what possible downside could there be", I really don't think we are going to get anywhere. :-b

If you want to talk about any of the concerns that have been talked about in the thread over IR, I'm all for it. But I'm all out of riddles so if we don't want to try and move the discussion forward I'll bow out.
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Re: Delgado Robbed - It's time for instant replay

Postby Tavish » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:44 am

CBMGreatOne wrote:In any case, there are already situations where the ump is placing baserunners, like when defenders are ruled to have obstructed the basepaths etc.

Although there wasn't any specific discussion that I saw of it in the memo, I'm guessing that if a play originally called a HR was overturned by IR and instead ruled "In play" they would award something along the lines of ground-rule double. I wouldn't think they would use the "fan interference" type design of umpires' judgment for awarding bases.
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Re: Delgado Robbed - It's time for instant replay

Postby Maris09 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:59 am

Tavish wrote:Sorry, I wasn't trying to be cryptic.

:-?

Tavish wrote:But if after 20+ pages we are right back to saying "I'm not ignoring any arguments" then following that up with "what possible downside could there be", I really don't think we are going to get anywhere. :-b

Man you twist stuff.
Me saying I'm not ignoring your argument can be true, while at the same time trying to tell you that you haven't really listed any downside yet, you've only said there is going to be downside.
I don't get the misconnect here.

You say there's downside, I say what is it, then you throw up a riddle.
That about right?

Yes downside, I hear you. I'm not "ignoring" that you've said it.
Then I say, what downside do you speak of? It hasn't started being used yet. There's hasn't been any downside, so thus far it's just a projection from you.
I in no way "ignored" what you said, and at the same time do not see these problems that you say are omnipresent.

Tavish wrote:But I'm all out of riddles so if we don't want to try and move the discussion forward I'll bow out.

I doubt you are out of riddles, but I'm all for moving forward as well.
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Re: Delgado Robbed - It's time for instant replay

Postby Tavish » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:29 pm

Maris09 wrote:You say there's downside, I say what is it, then you throw up a riddle.

No, you say what is the downside and I say there are 20+ pages that have brought up some of these "possible" (that better?) downsides. It isn't a riddle, it is being tired of saying the same things over and over. You've basically ignored everything prior to you joining the thread and want everything rehashed for you.
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Re: Delgado Robbed - It's time for instant replay

Postby bigh0rt » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:49 pm

Maris09 wrote:
Tavish wrote:Sorry, I wasn't trying to be cryptic.

:-?

Tavish wrote:But if after 20+ pages we are right back to saying "I'm not ignoring any arguments" then following that up with "what possible downside could there be", I really don't think we are going to get anywhere. :-b

Man you twist stuff.
Me saying I'm not ignoring your argument can be true, while at the same time trying to tell you that you haven't really listed any downside yet, you've only said there is going to be downside.
I don't get the misconnect here.

You say there's downside, I say what is it, then you throw up a riddle.
That about right?

Yes downside, I hear you. I'm not "ignoring" that you've said it.
Then I say, what downside do you speak of? It hasn't started being used yet. There's hasn't been any downside, so thus far it's just a projection from you.
I in no way "ignored" what you said, and at the same time do not see these problems that you say are omnipresent.

Tavish wrote:But I'm all out of riddles so if we don't want to try and move the discussion forward I'll bow out.

I doubt you are out of riddles, but I'm all for moving forward as well.

Whether or not you agree with possible downsides doesn't mean they weren't presented to you in a perfectly reasonable way...
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