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How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby broomulack » Mon May 12, 2008 2:30 pm

Tavish wrote:
Why not? It has happened plenty of times before, again it is dependent on which stat service is reporting the box score.

Theoretically you could come in with 1 out in the first inning and finish the game and get a save. Assuming the starter never records an out, a RP comes in and gets 1 out, and then the next reliever finishes the game. The scorekeeper could give the win to the RP who got 1 out and the save to the RP who got 26 outs. You could apply the same thing to a hold, just have another reliever get the final out and you have a 1 out win, a 1 out save, and a 25 out hold.

Obviously the scorekeeper since the scorekeeper is supposed to give the win to the most effective pitcher they would give it to the 25/26 out guy. But it isn't set in stone that they have to.


Incorrect again. There needs to be a pitcher of record to record a save - you are not saving anything if there is no winning pitcher. Hence, if a game is not official, there is no save situation.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby Tavish » Mon May 12, 2008 2:33 pm

broomulack wrote:
Tavish wrote:
Why not? It has happened plenty of times before, again it is dependent on which stat service is reporting the box score.

Theoretically you could come in with 1 out in the first inning and finish the game and get a save. Assuming the starter never records an out, a RP comes in and gets 1 out, and then the next reliever finishes the game. The scorekeeper could give the win to the RP who got 1 out and the save to the RP who got 26 outs. You could apply the same thing to a hold, just have another reliever get the final out and you have a 1 out win, a 1 out save, and a 25 out hold.

Obviously the scorekeeper since the scorekeeper is supposed to give the win to the most effective pitcher they would give it to the 25/26 out guy. But it isn't set in stone that they have to.


Incorrect again. There needs to be a pitcher of record to record a save - you are not saving anything if there is no winning pitcher. Hence, if a game is not official, there is no save situation.


You need to reread what I wrote.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby broomulack » Mon May 12, 2008 2:45 pm

Incorrect again. There needs to be a pitcher of record to record a save - you are not saving anything if there is no winning pitcher. Hence, if a game is not official, there is no save situation.[/quote]

You need to reread what I wrote.[/quote]


I read exactly what you wrote - forgive me if I seem condescending - but you answered your own question even if you did also ignore what I wrote in that there is no official game before the 5th inning. Let's pretend i didn't bring that up.

You're saying that a pitcher could record one out and have the next pitcher go the final 7+ innings for a save. There is no chance that the official scorer would awared a win to that first pitcher. Nor a hold. You know it, I know it, and if you want to be 'technical', i could say that there is no rule in place that prevents 70 yr old ballplayers from making comebacks - but it doesn't happen.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby Tavish » Mon May 12, 2008 2:55 pm

broomulack wrote:I read exactly what you wrote - forgive me if I seem condescending - but you answered your own question even if you did also ignore what I wrote in that there is no official game before the 5th inning. Let's pretend i didn't bring that up.

You're saying that a pitcher could record one out and have the next pitcher go the final 7+ innings for a save. There is no chance that the official scorer would awared a win to that first pitcher. Nor a hold. You know it, I know it, and if you want to be 'technical', i could say that there is no rule in place that prevents 70 yr old ballplayers from making comebacks - but it doesn't happen.

*shrug* That is why I said theoretically, and theoretically it is possible because the scorekeeper can give the win to whomever they want if the starter doesn't go 5 and the team doesn't lose the lead. It will never happen that way, but it is possible within the guidelines. And the scorekeeper will never credit the person with a hold in that situation, then again they will never credit ANY pitcher with a hold in ANY situation. It is not an official stat and it is up to the stat feed provider (or whomever they have collecting the data) to credit a hold, not the scorekeeper.

It is also why I gave links to examples of pitchers getting credit for both a hold and win in the same game. You can spout as many interpretations as you want about how it is impossible, I can't give you any more concrete proof that it is possible than showing you a game log. Or I guess I could give you links to several articles that show it to be possible, or the Yahoo page explaining how it is possible. I just figured the game log would have been enough evidence.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby broomulack » Mon May 12, 2008 2:59 pm

Tavish wrote:*shrug* That is why I said theoretically, and theoretically it is possible because the scorekeeper can give the win to whomever they want if the starter doesn't go 5 and the team doesn't lose the lead. It will never happen that way, but it is possible within the guidelines. And the scorekeeper will never credit the person with a hold in that situation, then again they will never credit ANY pitcher with a hold in ANY situation. It is not an official stat and it is up to the stat feed provider (or whomever they have collecting the data) to credit a hold, not the scorekeeper.

It is also why I gave links to examples of pitchers getting credit for both a hold and win in the same game. You can spout as many interpretations as you want about how it is impossible, I can't give you any more concrete proof that it is possible than showing you a game log. Or I guess I could give you links to several articles that show it to be possible, or the Yahoo page explaining how it is possible. I just figured the game log would have been enough evidence.


Hence why I don't play on Yahoo. lol
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby JohnnyBenchBest Ever » Mon May 12, 2008 3:43 pm

if you look on ESPN you will see that Hawkins was credited with a hold and a win in the same game. The win cost me the cat. and the hold tied a cat.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby Nerfherders » Mon May 12, 2008 3:50 pm

One of the first rules on getting a save is:

*Cannot be the winning pitcher.

So a pitcher cannot get the win and the save in the same game, even if he does finish a game with 4 1/3 IP or more. He would get the win and there would be no save. wins trump saves every time.

Now for a hold, I am not sure if that rule still holds true (pardon the pun). If so, the pitcher would get a win and not a hold. Whoever the scorer decides the win would go to would just get a win. Any other pitcher to enter the game would get a hold or save, as applicable. If that isn't part of the hold rule than perhaps it is possible. But I would assume holds rules are exactly the same as save rules except for the rule that a pitcher must finish the game.

I would assume also, for the sake of argument, that a pitcher cannot get a hold for 3 innings of effective relief, holding a lead of any size. I would imagine that a hold is reserved for only those instances in which a pitcher enters a save situation.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby fezzik » Mon May 12, 2008 4:46 pm

Tavish wrote:
broomulack wrote:I read exactly what you wrote - forgive me if I seem condescending - but you answered your own question even if you did also ignore what I wrote in that there is no official game before the 5th inning. Let's pretend i didn't bring that up.

You're saying that a pitcher could record one out and have the next pitcher go the final 7+ innings for a save. There is no chance that the official scorer would awared a win to that first pitcher. Nor a hold. You know it, I know it, and if you want to be 'technical', i could say that there is no rule in place that prevents 70 yr old ballplayers from making comebacks - but it doesn't happen.

*shrug* That is why I said theoretically, and theoretically it is possible because the scorekeeper can give the win to whomever they want if the starter doesn't go 5 and the team doesn't lose the lead. It will never happen that way, but it is possible within the guidelines. And the scorekeeper will never credit the person with a hold in that situation, then again they will never credit ANY pitcher with a hold in ANY situation. It is not an official stat and it is up to the stat feed provider (or whomever they have collecting the data) to credit a hold, not the scorekeeper.

It is also why I gave links to examples of pitchers getting credit for both a hold and win in the same game. You can spout as many interpretations as you want about how it is impossible, I can't give you any more concrete proof that it is possible than showing you a game log. Or I guess I could give you links to several articles that show it to be possible, or the Yahoo page explaining how it is possible. I just figured the game log would have been enough evidence.


I already went over all this, but it's good to see a confirming opinion... ;-D
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