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How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby Tavish » Mon May 12, 2008 9:58 am

broomulack wrote:Dude, just checked MLB.com and Hawkins has 0 holds credited to him. The box score for his only win also does not show him getting a hold. Yahoo is incorrect, as usual.

If you are going to color-coordinate my quote and tell me I contradicted myself, kindly include the part where I stated that you can't be in a save situation to get a hold that early in the game.


The stat supplier has to determine when there is a hold. Since there is no "set in stone" definition for a hold the suppliers are free to award them when they feel like it. STATS LLC (they provides the statistics for ESPN.com and Yahoo) credit Hawkins with a Win and a Hold in the particular game. MLB.com does not credit the hold.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby broomulack » Mon May 12, 2008 10:11 am

Tavish wrote:
The stat supplier has to determine when there is a hold. Since there is no "set in stone" definition for a hold the suppliers are free to award them when they feel like it. STATS LLC (they provides the statistics for ESPN.com and Yahoo) credit Hawkins with a Win and a Hold in the particular game. MLB.com does not credit the hold.


There is absolutely a set definition of a hold; it is just not recognized as an official stat. But the defnition is set in stone and, once you get to know it fairly well, easy to determine.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby Tavish » Mon May 12, 2008 10:26 am

broomulack wrote:
Tavish wrote:
The stat supplier has to determine when there is a hold. Since there is no "set in stone" definition for a hold the suppliers are free to award them when they feel like it. STATS LLC (they provides the statistics for ESPN.com and Yahoo) credit Hawkins with a Win and a Hold in the particular game. MLB.com does not credit the hold.


There is absolutely a set definition of a hold; it is just not recognized as an official stat. But the defnition is set in stone and, once you get to know it fairly well, easy to determine.

There are several definitions. It is not an official statistic, so there is no official definition. Some definitions say you have to record an out, some do not. Some give credit for a hold when you enter with a large lead, some do not. The definition MLB.com uses is not the official definition that everyone is forced to follow. If there was an official definition, it would probably be better to use the STATS LLC one since they created the stat in the first place.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby Y`s Guy » Mon May 12, 2008 12:53 pm

If an RP enters a game in the 6th and has a one-run lead he gets a hold if he ends the 6th with that lead. The hold stays.

If he comes out and pitches the entire 7th but yields a two-run jack he still has that hold.

Now if his team takes the lead back and wins the game that RP gets the win also. This is how I see the two stats counting for one outing.

I don't think Casilla came in with a lead yesterday, tho, and was surprised at the hold being counted. It has been rescinded.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby mtxdevil » Mon May 12, 2008 1:03 pm

Y`s Guy wrote:If an RP enters a game in the 6th and has a one-run lead he gets a hold if he ends the 6th with that lead. The hold stays.

If he comes out and pitches the entire 7th but yields a two-run jack he still has that hold.



That would not be a hold...

A Hold is credited any time a relief pitcher enters a game in a Save Situation (see definition below), records at least one out, and leaves the game never having relinquished the lead.

He would have relinquished the lead. It doesn't make any sense to credit someone with a hold if he blows the lead and the gets the lead back does it?
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby acsguitar » Mon May 12, 2008 1:18 pm

There's no such thing as a hold you guys are making all of this up
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby Matthias » Mon May 12, 2008 2:02 pm

mtxdevil wrote:
Y`s Guy wrote:If an RP enters a game in the 6th and has a one-run lead he gets a hold if he ends the 6th with that lead. The hold stays.

If he comes out and pitches the entire 7th but yields a two-run jack he still has that hold.

That would not be a hold...

A Hold is credited any time a relief pitcher enters a game in a Save Situation (see definition below), records at least one out, and leaves the game never having relinquished the lead.

He would have relinquished the lead. It doesn't make any sense to credit someone with a hold if he blows the lead and the gets the lead back does it?

Exactly.

Either, he:
* Comes in with the lead, keeps the lead, and leaves with the lead, in which he gets a Hold.
* Comes in with the lead, keeps the lead, and finishes the game with the lead, in which case he gets a Save.
* Comes in with the lead, gives up the lead, regains the lead, leaves with the lead, and they keep the lead, in which case he gets the Win.
* Comes in without the lead, leaves with the lead, and they keep the lead, in which case he gets a Win.
* Leaves without the lead, in which case he gets nothing except maybe the Loss.
There is no option 6.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby Tavish » Mon May 12, 2008 2:16 pm

Matthias wrote:There is no option 6.

* Starter does not go 5 innings. Relief pitcher comes in with the lead, leaves with the lead and get the credit for a hold. Scorekeeper decides he was the most effective pitcher and credits him with the win as well.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby broomulack » Mon May 12, 2008 2:19 pm

Tavish wrote:
Matthias wrote:There is no option 6.

* Starter does not go 5 innings. Relief pitcher comes in with the lead, leaves with the lead and get the credit for a hold. Scorekeeper decides he was the most effective pitcher and credits him with the win as well.


Someone brought this up, and I stand by my response that you cannot be in a save situation before the 5th inning.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby Tavish » Mon May 12, 2008 2:26 pm

broomulack wrote:
Tavish wrote:
Matthias wrote:There is no option 6.

* Starter does not go 5 innings. Relief pitcher comes in with the lead, leaves with the lead and get the credit for a hold. Scorekeeper decides he was the most effective pitcher and credits him with the win as well.


Someone brought this up, and I stand by my response that you cannot be in a save situation before the 5th inning.

Why not? It has happened plenty of times before, again it is dependent on which stat service is reporting the box score.

Theoretically you could come in with 1 out in the first inning and finish the game and get a save. Assuming the starter never records an out, a RP comes in and gets 1 out, and then the next reliever finishes the game. The scorekeeper could give the win to the RP who got 1 out and the save to the RP who got 26 outs. You could apply the same thing to a hold, just have another reliever get the final out and you have a 1 out win, a 1 out save, and a 25 out hold.

Obviously the scorekeeper since the scorekeeper is supposed to give the win to the most effective pitcher they would give it to the 25/26 out guy. But it isn't set in stone that they have to.

*edit*
Examples of a hold + win
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=3176
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=2786
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