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How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby fezzik » Mon May 12, 2008 12:42 am

NZ Eff wrote:
JohnnyBenchBest Ever wrote:Hawkins did it early in the season for the Yankees.


He won the game, he didn't get a hold as well.


Acutally he got both...the starting pitcher leaves early (before 5IP), then a pitcher comes in with the lead that meets the criteria for a save situation and pitches well enough for the official scorer to credit him with the win...he also gets the hold.

If you seriously don't believe me, then check out his game log...Holds are counted in one of my leagues and Hawkins hasn't pitched in many games where the Yankees actually won...and he has one hold on the season...if you check the four wins or so he was involved in, the one in which he got the win was the only possible one he could have gotten a hold in.

Wins and Holds aren't mutually exclusive...

That being said Casilla did not get a Hold because while he was pitching he relinquished the lead (it was a tie game for a half an inning), even though the runner was inherited.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby NZ Eff » Mon May 12, 2008 12:59 am

Y`s Guy wrote:We'll see if this shakes out but both Yahoo and CBS have given Casilla a HOLD and a WIN.


Never rely on Yahoo for any statistical accuracy. According to MLB.com he got credited to a blown save and the win.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby broomulack » Mon May 12, 2008 1:07 am

fezzik wrote:
NZ Eff wrote:
JohnnyBenchBest Ever wrote:Hawkins did it early in the season for the Yankees.


Wins and Holds aren't mutually exclusive...



Granted this is a possibility, BUT very unlikely. Your holds guys are 7th and 8th inning guys for the most part and wouldn't be on most rosters if they would be used in long relief.

So, I suppose you are techinically correct.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby NZ Eff » Mon May 12, 2008 1:10 am

fezzik wrote:
NZ Eff wrote:
JohnnyBenchBest Ever wrote:Hawkins did it early in the season for the Yankees.


He won the game, he didn't get a hold as well.


Acutally he got both...the starting pitcher leaves early (before 5IP), then a pitcher comes in with the lead that meets the criteria for a save situation and pitches well enough for the official scorer to credit him with the win...he also gets the hold.

If you seriously don't believe me, then check out his game log...Holds are counted in one of my leagues and Hawkins hasn't pitched in many games where the Yankees actually won...and he has one hold on the season...if you check the four wins or so he was involved in, the one in which he got the win was the only possible one he could have gotten a hold in.



He was credited with the win only.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.js ... p#boxscore
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby fezzik » Mon May 12, 2008 1:12 am

MLB doesn't show Hawkins with a Hold this season, but Yahoo does...since Holds isn't an official stat anyway and I have some Yahoo leagues, the fact that Yahoo considers it a Hold is all that really matters. :-)

But to the people saying you can't get the Win and the Hold, there is nothing in either definition that would prevent both happening at the same time... ;-D

Given the definition of a Hold on MLB's website, I'm surprised they didn't credit him with one in the game he got the W.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby broomulack » Mon May 12, 2008 1:22 am

fezzik wrote:MLB doesn't show Hawkins with a Hold this season, but Yahoo does...since Holds isn't an official stat anyway and I have some Yahoo leagues, the fact that Yahoo considers it a Hold is all that really matters. :-)

But to the people saying you can't get the Win and the Hold, there is nothing in either definition that would prevent both happening at the same time... ;-D

Given the definition of a Hold on MLB's website, I'm surprised they didn't credit him with one in the game he got the W.


<<<Hold
A Hold is credited any time a relief pitcher enters a game in a Save Situation (see definition below), records at least one out, and leaves the game never having relinquished the lead.

Note: a pitcher cannot finish the game and receive credit for a Hold, nor can he earn a hold and a save>>>


Once again, technically you are right, it doesn't SAY that you can't have both. HOWEVER, since you can only get a hold in a save situation, here's the definition of a save:

<<<Save Situation
Relief Pitcher is in a Save Situation when upon entering the game with his club leading, he has the opportunity to be the finishing pitcher (and is not the winning pitcher of record at the time), and meets any one of the three following conditions:

he has a lead of no more than three runs and has the opportunity to pitch for at least one inning, or

he enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, at bat, or on deck; or

he pitches three or more innings regardless of the lead and the official scorer credits him with a save. >>>


Note that it says that the pitcher cannot be the pitcher of record when he enteres the game. Thus, you cannot get a hold and a win UNLESS your very rare and extremely unlikely situation presents itself. Even then, I'm not sure a game that's not an official game can be considered a save situation.

Methinks wins and holds ARE mutually exclusive.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby fezzik » Mon May 12, 2008 1:31 am

broomulack wrote:
fezzik wrote:MLB doesn't show Hawkins with a Hold this season, but Yahoo does...since Holds isn't an official stat anyway and I have some Yahoo leagues, the fact that Yahoo considers it a Hold is all that really matters. :-)

But to the people saying you can't get the Win and the Hold, there is nothing in either definition that would prevent both happening at the same time... ;-D

Given the definition of a Hold on MLB's website, I'm surprised they didn't credit him with one in the game he got the W.


<<<Hold
A Hold is credited any time a relief pitcher enters a game in a Save Situation (see definition below), records at least one out, and leaves the game never having relinquished the lead.

Note: a pitcher cannot finish the game and receive credit for a Hold, nor can he earn a hold and a save>>>


Once again, technically you are right, it doesn't SAY that you can't have both. HOWEVER, since you can only get a hold in a save situation, here's the definition of a save:

<<<Save Situation
Relief Pitcher is in a Save Situation when upon entering the game with his club leading, he has the opportunity to be the finishing pitcher (and is not the winning pitcher of record at the time), and meets any one of the three following conditions:

he has a lead of no more than three runs and has the opportunity to pitch for at least one inning, or

he enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, at bat, or on deck; or

he pitches three or more innings regardless of the lead and the official scorer credits him with a save. >>>


Note that it says that the pitcher cannot be the pitcher of record when he enteres the game. Thus, you cannot get a hold and a win UNLESS your very rare and extremely unlikely situation presents itself. Even then, I'm not sure a game that's not an official game can be considered a save situation.

Methinks wins and holds ARE mutually exclusive.


This is a contradiction...

Hawkins scenario satisfied my "very rare and extremely unlikely situation". ;-) It's not that rare...a pitcher can leave with the lead quite easily if he gets injured before the 5th or both teams are in a slugfest and his pitch count is up or his effectiveness is in question. From there it's not that improbable for the right scenario to play out...
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby broomulack » Mon May 12, 2008 1:43 am

fezzik wrote:
broomulack wrote:
fezzik wrote:
Note that it says that the pitcher cannot be the pitcher of record when he enteres the game. Thus, you cannot get a hold and a win UNLESS your very rare and extremely unlikely situation presents itself. Even then, I'm not sure a game that's not an official game can be considered a save situation.

Methinks wins and holds ARE mutually exclusive.


This is a contradiction...

Hawkins scenario satisfied my "very rare and extremely unlikely situation". ;-) It's not that rare...a pitcher can leave with the lead quite easily if he gets injured before the 5th or both teams are in a slugfest and his pitch count is up or his effectiveness is in question.


Dude, just checked MLB.com and Hawkins has 0 holds credited to him. The box score for his only win also does not show him getting a hold. Yahoo is incorrect, as usual.

If you are going to color-coordinate my quote and tell me I contradicted myself, kindly include the part where I stated that you can't be in a save situation to get a hold that early in the game.
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby fezzik » Mon May 12, 2008 1:51 am

broomulack wrote:Dude, just checked MLB.com and Hawkins has 0 holds credited to him. The box score for his only win also does not show him getting a hold. Yahoo is incorrect, as usual.

If you are going to color-coordinate my quote and tell me I contradicted myself, kindly include the part where I stated that you can't be in a save situation to get a hold that early in the game.


Dude...I already noted MLB didn't count it as a Hold. Please read my posts before responding to them.

Since you liberally used the bold and italics options in your prior post, I had to color coordinate your post to make my point...it was that or enlarge the font size, but that just seemed excessive.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I see no reason why a "save situation" can't take place early in a game...I've seen guys getting Holds before the 5th. So my exclusion of that point was only because I thought it was...well...pointless. ;-)

Edit: I sent an email to that stats people at MLB asking whether it's possible to receive both from the same appearance. I also asked specificly why Hawkins wasn't credited with a Hold in addition to the win. I'll let you know what they say if/when they respond. ;-D
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Re: How often do you see a win AND(!!) a hold?

Postby Matthias » Mon May 12, 2008 9:48 am

Per MLB Rule 10.19,

The official scorer shall credit a pitcher with a save when a pitcher meets all four of the following conditions:
...
(b) He is not the winning pitcher;

Since, by definition, you cannot get a save and a win in the same game and the definition of a hold is that you enter the game in a save situation, I'm going to say it's impossible to earn both a hold and a win in the same game.

The fact that Yahoo credits something means absolutely zero. They probably just buy their stat-feed from someone else who buys it from MLB... it's not like they have someone from Yahoo sitting there, scoring every game, arriving at an independent judgment on when someone gets credit for this or that.
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