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One More Streaming Problem Thread

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One More Streaming Problem Thread

Postby Merlin401 » Wed May 07, 2008 12:02 am

14 Team league with the following very strange pitching categories:

IP, Appearences, W, Saves, Ks, ERA

No Rule Against Streaming at the beginning of the year. Hmm...

After some heavy-duty streaming by me and one other guy the first week, the Commish basically sent around a 'memo' saying lets all agree not to do this since some people were getting upset. Some people agreed, some people didn't say anything, I disagreed and it was basically unresolved.

Now no one is streaming at all basically. Some just dont have the time to think about making 4 or 5 moves a week. But if I see my opponent happens to have 4 starts more than me in a week, you bet i'm going to stream a start a day to make up the difference. I'm very happy with my pitching staff, but sometimes all your guys have 1 start and all your opponent's seem to have 2. Why would i sit by idly and lose easily winnable categories, right?

Any advice on the situation. Some managers got pretty PISSED last time I did it.
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Re: One More Streaming Problem Thread

Postby CruiseJD » Wed May 07, 2008 9:39 am

Those categories highly favor streaming - they make no sense unless streaming is prohibited. ERA and WHIP usually act as checks on streaming - but WHIP is removed and 2 categories that favor streaming are added.

If there is no rule against it, then you are doing nothing wrong within the rules. However, continuing to do it may cause a rift that breaks up the league in season or afterwards. Is this a consequence you are willing to accept? Depending on the league settings, the Commish may wrongly take action against your team even though you didn't violate the rules that existed in the beginning. There is more to a game than "the rules" - there is the spirit of the game, camaraderie, and the implications of going against the majority.

If this was a public league and no $ was on the line, I wouldn't care. Do whatever you want - it doesn't matter. If this was a league among friends/acquaintances or where $ was on the line, I would try to find a compromise - even though I technically wasn't doing anything wrong.
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Re: One More Streaming Problem Thread

Postby Matthias » Wed May 07, 2008 10:20 am

Merlin401 wrote:I'm very happy with my pitching staff, but sometimes all your guys have 1 start and all your opponent's seem to have 2. Why would i sit by idly and lose easily winnable categories, right?

Then stop drafting pitchers who pitch out of 10-man rotations.

Streaming is a punk move. If you tried this in my league, I might kick you out this year. I would definitely not invite you back for next. The real question is what are you gaining by this? Probably not money (or not much) and any recognition or pride that you think you'd get will be instantly shot down by your leaguemates. So why do it?
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Re: One More Streaming Problem Thread

Postby noseeum » Wed May 07, 2008 10:57 am

Matthias wrote:
Merlin401 wrote:I'm very happy with my pitching staff, but sometimes all your guys have 1 start and all your opponent's seem to have 2. Why would i sit by idly and lose easily winnable categories, right?

Then stop drafting pitchers who pitch out of 10-man rotations.

Streaming is a punk move. If you tried this in my league, I might kick you out this year. I would definitely not invite you back for next. The real question is what are you gaining by this? Probably not money (or not much) and any recognition or pride that you think you'd get will be instantly shot down by your leaguemates. So why do it?


You say this in every streaming thread, and you never respond to the point that that is just your opinion. Many people feel it's not a punk move. It's a legitimate strategy, and it's an inherent characteristic of a league that has daily lineup changes and counting stats for pitchers. In a league with these settings, there's a big sign next to every starting pitcher on the waiver wire, saying "PICK ME UP! I CAN HELP YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING THIS WEEK! PLEASE!!!!!" and you expect everyone to just ignore it.

Meanwhile, it's never been discussed in the league before. Your line of thinking assumes that everyone is literally born with the knowledge that streaming is a "punk move." It's just not true. But regardless of the flawed logic, you want to burn every streamer at the stake.

Can't you even consider the other perspective?
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Re: One More Streaming Problem Thread

Postby Matthias » Wed May 07, 2008 12:08 pm

noseeum wrote:
Matthias wrote:
Merlin401 wrote:I'm very happy with my pitching staff, but sometimes all your guys have 1 start and all your opponent's seem to have 2. Why would i sit by idly and lose easily winnable categories, right?

Then stop drafting pitchers who pitch out of 10-man rotations.

Streaming is a punk move. If you tried this in my league, I might kick you out this year. I would definitely not invite you back for next. The real question is what are you gaining by this? Probably not money (or not much) and any recognition or pride that you think you'd get will be instantly shot down by your leaguemates. So why do it?

You say this in every streaming thread, and you never respond to the point that that is just your opinion. Many people feel it's not a punk move. It's a legitimate strategy, and it's an inherent characteristic of a league that has daily lineup changes and counting stats for pitchers. In a league with these settings, there's a big sign next to every starting pitcher on the waiver wire, saying "PICK ME UP! I CAN HELP YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING THIS WEEK! PLEASE!!!!!" and you expect everyone to just ignore it.

Can't you even consider the other perspective?

There's people who come here looking for advice and people who come here looking for validation. This guy is looking for validation which I'm not going to provide. I do think that streaming is cheap. And he's trying to rationalize it with the idea that it always seems that his opponents' pitchers get 2 starts. As far as I know, all MLB teams use a 5-man rotation that they'll occasionally drop the 5th guy out of if there's some travel days jammed in there. So if you keep your rotation constant, you should get just as many starts as everyone else. He's not looking to level anything out... he's just looking for a blessing.

noseeum wrote:Meanwhile, it's never been discussed in the league before. Your line of thinking assumes that everyone is literally born with the knowledge that streaming is a "punk move." It's just not true. But regardless of the flawed logic, you want to burn every streamer at the stake

Sure. But on the other side of the coin, people's line of thinking assumes that everyone is literally born with the knowledge of what behaviors their league settings are going to incentivize. And that's always their fall-back defense: well, even if they didn't think of it, it's in the rules now and they should have thought about it so sour grapes. There's no flexibility there, either.

I do realize that it's a temptation and that there is a big sign next to these pitchers to pick them up. And that's what makes the move so cheap. If someone actually did some analysis and realized that a certain list of pitchers had amazing performances under certain conditions, drafted them, and succeeded with it, i'd tip my hat to them as having gone the extra yard to put themselves over the top. But just cycling through whoever is available, or the best of what's available, is not doing anything worthwhile. It's simply being blindingly persistent. So I guess you could say that I see the value of it; I just don't see any value in it.
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Re: One More Streaming Problem Thread

Postby noseeum » Wed May 07, 2008 12:32 pm

The flaws in logic abound all over here.

Matthias wrote:Sure. But on the other side of the coin, people's line of thinking assumes that everyone is literally born with the knowledge of what behaviors their league settings are going to incentivize. And that's always their fall-back defense: well, even if they didn't think of it, it's in the rules now and they should have thought about it so sour grapes. There's no flexibility there, either.


No, there is no assumption that people are born with knowledge of league settings and incentives. That's the whole freakin point of playing fantasy baseball, to see who's best able to build a team suited to succeeding in the league's setup. Why are there different league settings? Are you saying that you shouldn't optimize your team for your league's settings? Why don't we just have VORP as the only stat and be done with it then? The entire point of playing this game is to see who's the best owner within the given system that was agreed upon. In this case, the agreed upon system encourages streaming. If you're not into streaming, you might lose. It's not the streamer's fault. It's the league's setup. If you didn't realize that when the league started, don't go bitching to the commish about it. Get off your duff and start competing.

Say I'm in a holds/saves league, and I punt saves during the draft because I realize no one will be buying holds guys in the draft. I can get the best holds guys super cheap and win a cat to eliminate the advantage the guys who paid dearly for closers have, guess what, sour grapes for the other guys who didn't figure that out. And I gloat all summer about it as they start dropping their closers to pick up holds guys, and I take their closers for free and start winning both categories. That is precisely the entire point of fantasy baseball. You accept this scenario and would tip your cap to me for my strategy, and yet you tell streamers to get the heck out of the league. What's the difference?

Matthias wrote:I do realize that it's a temptation and that there is a big sign next to these pitchers to pick them up. And that's what makes the move so cheap.


So if someone drops Arod tomorrow and you have the number one waiver spot, you should leave him there because you already have Ryan Braun at third? You're essentially saying, "when someone sees an obvious move that's available to all owners in the league, and he knows it will help him compete, he shouldn't do it because it's cheap." How does that make sense?

Matthias wrote:If someone actually did some analysis and realized that a certain list of pitchers had amazing performances under certain conditions, drafted them, and succeeded with it, i'd tip my hat to them as having gone the extra yard to put themselves over the top. But just cycling through whoever is available, or the best of what's available, is not doing anything worthwhile. It's simply being blindingly persistent. So I guess you could say that I see the value of it; I just don't see any value in it.


So if someone does some analysis, looks at his league's settings the day before the draft and realizes, "Holy crap. I don't need to draft any stud SPs. I'm going to pick nothing but offensive guys for the first 12 rounds, then I'll fill out my roster with high upside young pitchers. If they fail, I can hit the wire because all the pitching stats are counting stats. I can just pick up any guys who's starting and compete in pitching. Nice. Good pitchers are worthless in this league." Once he realizes this, instead he should say, "well, that's not fair. I should draft Johan in round 1 anyway." How does that make sense?
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Re: One More Streaming Problem Thread

Postby Merlin401 » Wed May 07, 2008 2:34 pm

Matthias wrote:There's people who come here looking for advice and people who come here looking for validation. This guy is looking for validation which I'm not going to provide. I do think that streaming is cheap. And he's trying to rationalize it with the idea that it always seems that his opponents' pitchers get 2 starts. As far as I know, all MLB teams use a 5-man rotation that they'll occasionally drop the 5th guy out of if there's some travel days jammed in there. So if you keep your rotation constant, you should get just as many starts as everyone else. He's not looking to level anything out... he's just looking for a blessing.


Totally untrue. Its a 26 person team so benches can be pretty large. This particular week, I have eight starting pitchers and my opponent has 7. But as it just so happens... I have TWELVE starts this week and he has SEVEN. With our categories that is a major unfair advantage to him, out of no fault of his own or his rotations. And it wont balance out, as I might not even play him again this entire year. So why shouldn't he be allowed to stream a pitcher a day to try to make up this difference and AT LEAST make me work for IPs, Innings, and Ks? Personally I see that as only logical.

I'm not streaming hard-core here. I have my 8-man rotation. On weeks when they get the short end of the stick with starts, or when I'm behind over the weekend, I'll stream a bit to help out. On average I'd say I will make 2 "streamed starts" a week.

My whole draft strategy revolved around this because of the categories. Here's what it was:

* Draft offense for the first 8 round at least
* Get Figgins and Yunel Escobar so I needed virtually no bench
* Then get more starters than anyone else to compete in pitching. I usually have 8-9 starters while the average team has 6 or 7 (with a streamed start here or there if necessary on weeks where I'm losing)
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Re: One More Streaming Problem Thread

Postby Matthias » Wed May 07, 2008 2:53 pm

Merlin401 wrote:Totally untrue. Its a 26 person team so benches can be pretty large. This particular week, I have eight starting pitchers and my opponent has 7. But as it just so happens... I have TWELVE starts this week and he has SEVEN. With our categories that is a major unfair advantage to him, out of no fault of his own or his rotations. And it wont balance out, as I might not even play him again this entire year. So why shouldn't he be allowed to stream a pitcher a day to try to make up this difference and AT LEAST make me work for IPs, Innings, and Ks? Personally I see that as only logical.

So on weeks where your team has twelve starts and the other person has seven do you bench two guys to make it fair? It would seem to be logical if "fair" is what you're after.
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Re: One More Streaming Problem Thread

Postby Merlin401 » Wed May 07, 2008 4:24 pm

Matthias wrote:
Merlin401 wrote:Totally untrue. Its a 26 person team so benches can be pretty large. This particular week, I have eight starting pitchers and my opponent has 7. But as it just so happens... I have TWELVE starts this week and he has SEVEN. With our categories that is a major unfair advantage to him, out of no fault of his own or his rotations. And it wont balance out, as I might not even play him again this entire year. So why shouldn't he be allowed to stream a pitcher a day to try to make up this difference and AT LEAST make me work for IPs, Innings, and Ks? Personally I see that as only logical.

So on weeks where your team has twelve starts and the other person has seven do you bench two guys to make it fair? It would seem to be logical if "fair" is what you're after.


Of course not. You dont hurt your own team to make things that are out of your control "fair." Thats not in the nature of competition. But if your team is suffering an UNFAIR advantage, I would expect any competative manager who cared to use ALL possible rules and loopholes at his disposal to try to regain that advantage.
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Re: One More Streaming Problem Thread

Postby noseeum » Wed May 07, 2008 9:32 pm

Merlin401 wrote:Totally untrue. Its a 26 person team so benches can be pretty large. This particular week, I have eight starting pitchers and my opponent has 7. But as it just so happens... I have TWELVE starts this week and he has SEVEN. With our categories that is a major unfair advantage to him, out of no fault of his own or his rotations. And it wont balance out, as I might not even play him again this entire year. So why shouldn't he be allowed to stream a pitcher a day to try to make up this difference and AT LEAST make me work for IPs, Innings, and Ks? Personally I see that as only logical.


Amen. The anti streaming argument just makes no sense when you drill down into it. A guy is staring a loss straight in the face and the rest of the league wants to be able to tell him to accept defeat on Monday? I think streaming is way too tiresome to have to deal with, but that's why I don't play in leagues with pro-streaming setups. If I did play in one and I was facing a 5 start deficit, I would most certainly do my best to beat the pants off the other owner.
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