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Pitching criteria

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Re: Pitching criteria

Postby noseeum » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:36 am

Matthias wrote:No; you can do it for weekly transactions; just say pitchers have to be pitch in the capacity that they're slotted.

There's no need to worry about shortage of pitchers. There's plenty of pitchers to go around and people will draft/trade to get what they need.


This sounds simple, but I think it would be frustrating. It should not be based on where they pitch. It has to be based on past games. Relievers make spot starts all the time and those games should count. Especially in a weekly league. I think attempting anything based on where they pitch in a certain day will be cumbersome. There's no difference between a reliever starting and Ryan Braun playing outfield but being slotted in at 3B, so don't bother trying to deal with it.

Don't bother with that "appeared the most" part. I don't think "draft" should be in your eligibility rules at all. Who cares what position a player is drafted at? It only matters where they can play. Draft every hitter at U for all I care, but they're not playing 1B until they have 5 starts, right? I think the "appeared the most" and the draft aspects have unnecessarily complicated things.

It should simply be:
1. If a player has played more than 20 games the past season at a position, he will be eligible for that position.
2. If a player plays 5 games in the current season at a position, he will be eligible for that position
3. Offensive players with less than 20 games at any position from the previous season and less than 5 games at any position from the current season are only eligible for the U position [this is fine for the draft. you only have to deal with it for week 1 if there's some issue like wanting to use Braun at OF]

Last rule is for pitchers, which is a little tricky, as you don't want to miss 5 starts. I assume you're using an online service, so here's what I would do:
4. For pitchers with less than 20 games pitched at RP or SP from the previous season and less than 5 games pitched at RP or SP from the current season, we will defer to [yahoo's] position assignments to determine eligibility.
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Re: Pitching criteria

Postby Cards5 » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:44 pm

Ok thanks Matthias and noseeum
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Re: Pitching criteria

Postby Matthias » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:06 pm

noseeum wrote:
Matthias wrote:No; you can do it for weekly transactions; just say pitchers have to be pitch in the capacity that they're slotted.

There's no need to worry about shortage of pitchers. There's plenty of pitchers to go around and people will draft/trade to get what they need.

This sounds simple, but I think it would be frustrating. It should not be based on where they pitch. It has to be based on past games. Relievers make spot starts all the time and those games should count. Especially in a weekly league. I think attempting anything based on where they pitch in a certain day will be cumbersome. There's no difference between a reliever starting and Ryan Braun playing outfield but being slotted in at 3B, so don't bother trying to deal with it.

I see a real difference between a hitter getting eligibility at multiple positions and pitchers getting multiple eligibility. Ryan Braun really can play OF one day and 3B the next. He's a butcher at 3B, but he does have the training to play it and he could be slotted there tomorrow if Bill Hall went down. But in 99% of the cases, for a relief pitcher to start a game they have to go down to the minors for a few weeks to stretch out. You couldn't just take Papelbon and have him start tonight if there was a problem with Wakefield. Some could; Julian Tavarez comes to mind. But those guys are few and far between. And the stats for RP vs SP are qualitatively different: wins vs saves and generally much lower effective rate stats.

Also, there's much more gamesmanship that goes into pitchers than positional players. Some leagues have weekly innings minimums... some roto leagues have annual innings maximums... there's more manipulation that goes on with players in the field who, if they're playing, you play them. If they're not, you don't. You never see a discussion on churning OFers or hitter "strategies".

That all said, it is kind of a bother to make sure you're slotting them into the right spot (although not that much; I mean, really, Brett Myers is starting this year; we all know this). But just to avoid any controversy on the issue, when I made my league, I just didn't use SP or RP distinctions. Every pitcher is just P. So there's no gaming of the system; if you think reliever are valuable, draft them high. If you think starters are valuable, draft them high. But there's no weird thing where some mediocre pitcher is actually more valuable because they're marked as one thing and pitch as another.

As much as possible, I think a system should reward drafting quality players and as little as possible, reward manipulating the system.
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Re: Pitching criteria

Postby noseeum » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:14 pm

Matthias wrote:
noseeum wrote:
Matthias wrote:No; you can do it for weekly transactions; just say pitchers have to be pitch in the capacity that they're slotted.

There's no need to worry about shortage of pitchers. There's plenty of pitchers to go around and people will draft/trade to get what they need.

This sounds simple, but I think it would be frustrating. It should not be based on where they pitch. It has to be based on past games. Relievers make spot starts all the time and those games should count. Especially in a weekly league. I think attempting anything based on where they pitch in a certain day will be cumbersome. There's no difference between a reliever starting and Ryan Braun playing outfield but being slotted in at 3B, so don't bother trying to deal with it.

I see a real difference between a hitter getting eligibility at multiple positions and pitchers getting multiple eligibility. Ryan Braun really can play OF one day and 3B the next. He's a butcher at 3B, but he does have the training to play it and he could be slotted there tomorrow if Bill Hall went down. But in 99% of the cases, for a relief pitcher to start a game they have to go down to the minors for a few weeks to stretch out. You couldn't just take Papelbon and have him start tonight if there was a problem with Wakefield. Some could; Julian Tavarez comes to mind. But those guys are few and far between. And the stats for RP vs SP are qualitatively different: wins vs saves and generally much lower effective rate stats.

Also, there's much more gamesmanship that goes into pitchers than positional players. Some leagues have weekly innings minimums... some roto leagues have annual innings maximums... there's more manipulation that goes on with players in the field who, if they're playing, you play them. If they're not, you don't. You never see a discussion on churning OFers or hitter "strategies".

That all said, it is kind of a bother to make sure you're slotting them into the right spot (although not that much; I mean, really, Brett Myers is starting this year; we all know this). But just to avoid any controversy on the issue, when I made my league, I just didn't use SP or RP distinctions. Every pitcher is just P. So there's no gaming of the system; if you think reliever are valuable, draft them high. If you think starters are valuable, draft them high. But there's no weird thing where some mediocre pitcher is actually more valuable because they're marked as one thing and pitch as another.

As much as possible, I think a system should reward drafting quality players and as little as possible, reward manipulating the system.


I prefer just using P as well, as it allows for much greater variation of strategy. Yes, I agree with everything you said, but to me the annoyance/difficulty of enforcement factor lead me to think a daily position enforcement is just not practical. So for simplicity's sake, you just accept that every year there will be a couple of pitchers with both SP and RP eligibility. After all, despite the mounting evidence in the commissioner's corner, we all have lives.
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