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Pujols at 2B?

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Re: Pujols at 2B?

Postby eftda » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:04 am

Slow Pitch wrote:
Whisp wrote:it's ridiculous to say hornsby is better than pujols. if pujols could face the pitchers from the 1920's he'd probably hit .700 and knock in 300 HR. while if hornsby faced the hurlers of today, he'd hit about .150 with no stats.


Glad to see the knowledgeable crowd weighing in on Yoda's side. '

Ok Yoda you get Whisp & I get SABR & TSN. ;-D


Theres no way I take that list seriously with Barry Bonds at #34. The single Season Homerun leader, All-Time homerun leader, 500 Sb's, Single season walks record, All Time walks record... that list is just out dated... im done reading such crazyness.
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Re: Pujols at 2B?

Postby fezzik » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:13 am

eftda wrote:
Slow Pitch wrote:
Whisp wrote:it's ridiculous to say hornsby is better than pujols. if pujols could face the pitchers from the 1920's he'd probably hit .700 and knock in 300 HR. while if hornsby faced the hurlers of today, he'd hit about .150 with no stats.


Glad to see the knowledgeable crowd weighing in on Yoda's side. '

Ok Yoda you get Whisp & I get SABR & TSN. ;-D


Theres no way I take that list seriously with Barry Bonds at #34. The single Season Homerun leader, All-Time homerun leader, 500 Sb's, Single season walks record, All Time walks record... that list is just out dated... im done reading such crazyness.


Well...I believe the list is from 1999, so you really can't expect them to be clairvoyant. :-D That year Bond's had an OPS of 1.400+ sort of blows my mind...232 BB's? 120 of which were intentional? Seriously? :-b

It's a bit of a silly discussion anyway, most of which would have to be based on subjectivity...so...Pujols playing 2B...craziness.
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Re: Pujols at 2B?

Postby Slow Pitch » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:06 am

Yoda wrote:
Montana wrote:
I posted a joke saying 'Pujols is the best 2B ever'.


Which should have been picked up by nearly everyone.


Apparently not and then I get attacked by some troll.


A troll huh? I dont think someone w/ over 2K posts that has been here since 2004 can be considered a troll. Just cause I dont post 200x a day & have 20K doesnt mean anyone w/ less is a troll. Nice try though. ;-7

This is just a what you get when someone like you loses your debate. You saying Hornsby is not better than Pujols or not near the top players of all-time is without merit and ironically the most 'laughable statement.'

Of course I copy & pasted what SABR's top 10 list was it was evidence supporting my statment from the group that is considered the #1 authority on baseball history. The #'s also prove it.

Joke or not about Pujols & 2b you called my opinions laughable & you were trying to imply that I was idiot for thinking Hornsby was better than Albert or 30 other players you ripped off. When in fact he is as I stated considered a top 10 player of ALL TIME.

You lost a debate & made foolish statements, simply be a man admit it & move on. Dont continue to backtrack & start attacking me to try & deflect from the fact you sir, not I, look like the fool on this argument. ;-D
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Re: Pujols at 2B?

Postby Slow Pitch » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:11 am

eftda wrote:
Slow Pitch wrote:
Whisp wrote:it's ridiculous to say hornsby is better than pujols. if pujols could face the pitchers from the 1920's he'd probably hit .700 and knock in 300 HR. while if hornsby faced the hurlers of today, he'd hit about .150 with no stats.


Glad to see the knowledgeable crowd weighing in on Yoda's side. '

Ok Yoda you get Whisp & I get SABR & TSN. ;-D


Theres no way I take that list seriously with Barry Bonds at #34. The single Season Homerun leader, All-Time homerun leader, 500 Sb's, Single season walks record, All Time walks record... that list is just out dated... im done reading such crazyness.


Yes the list if from 1999. Read about that list a little & it is without peer according to baseball historians. It was extremely in-depth done by the top baseball minds & the list was compiled independently 5 different times to be as through as possible.

The list was used to support facts about Hornsby, nothing he has done has changed since 1999 so it is still very relevant to him.
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Re: Pujols at 2B?

Postby J35J » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:28 am

I just have a hard time believing that guys who played with and against only whites can be compared to todays players who play against anyone and everyone good enough to play. Its really not comparable, IMHO. Its kinda like taking the best players from 3 or 4 states and making a league out of them and then you have a few dominate players in that league put up huge numbers and say they are the best players to ever live.....really....well no, not really....they were dominate players in an inferior league against limited competition. Thats just the way I see it....there isn't enough Sabr stats out there that will make me change my mind about that.

Anyway.....so Pujols at 2B, huh? That seems as likely to me as him hitting 3 homers in a game. :-t
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Re: Pujols at 2B?

Postby Slow Pitch » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:36 am

J35J wrote:I just have a hard time believing that guys who played with and against only whites can be compared to todays players who play against anyone and everyone good enough to play. Its really not comparable, IMHO. Its kinda like taking the best players from 3 or 4 states and making a league out of them and then you have a few dominate players in that league put up huge numbers and say they are the best players to ever live.....really....well no, not really....they were dominate players in an inferior league against limited competition. Thats just the way I see it....there isn't enough Sabr stats out there that will make me change my mind about that.

Anyway.....so Pujols at 2B, huh? That seems as likely to me as him hitting 3 homers in a game. :-t


I agree its very difficult. Some points you make are very valid. You have to realize though there are other factors go the way of the ol' timers as well.

I will happily point these out later if you wish, but I am late for work now. :-o
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Re: Pujols at 2B?

Postby knapplc » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:13 am

J35J wrote:I just have a hard time believing that guys who played with and against only whites can be compared to todays players who play against anyone and everyone good enough to play. Its really not comparable, IMHO. Its kinda like taking the best players from 3 or 4 states and making a league out of them and then you have a few dominate players in that league put up huge numbers and say they are the best players to ever live.....really....well no, not really....they were dominate players in an inferior league against limited competition. Thats just the way I see it....there isn't enough Sabr stats out there that will make me change my mind about that.

That both helps and hurts the players from past eras. I’m certain it helped their stats facing lesser competition, but the flipside is that it kills their legacy in any argument like this. There is no way each and every player from the early part of the last century were inferior to today’s players, training and machine surrounding them excluded, but we’ll never have a good way to judge simply based on this fact alone.

J35J wrote:Anyway.....so Pujols at 2B, huh? That seems as likely to me as him hitting 3 homers in a game. :-t

Three homers in one game? Has anybody ever done that before? 8-o
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Re: Pujols at 2B?

Postby J35J » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:30 am

Slow Pitch wrote:
J35J wrote:I just have a hard time believing that guys who played with and against only whites can be compared to todays players who play against anyone and everyone good enough to play. Its really not comparable, IMHO. Its kinda like taking the best players from 3 or 4 states and making a league out of them and then you have a few dominate players in that league put up huge numbers and say they are the best players to ever live.....really....well no, not really....they were dominate players in an inferior league against limited competition. Thats just the way I see it....there isn't enough Sabr stats out there that will make me change my mind about that.

Anyway.....so Pujols at 2B, huh? That seems as likely to me as him hitting 3 homers in a game. :-t


I agree its very difficult. Some points you make are very valid. You have to realize though there are other factors go the way of the ol' timers as well.

I will happily point these out later if you wish, but I am late for work now. :-o


You don't need to point anything out for me....you're really not saying anything that anybody here doesn't already know. I just know for me that I question the competition level and skill of the players back in those days. With that said, I fully believe that trying to compare the players in anyway is kinda silly. Too me they should be looked at completely seperate....I don't even really like having the records be in the same book personally. Thats neither here nor there though.... we've gone off topic enough though so we'll just agree to disagree. :-)
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Re: Pujols at 2B?

Postby Matthias » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:55 am

J35J wrote:I just have a hard time believing that guys who played with and against only whites can be compared to todays players who play against anyone and everyone good enough to play.

There were non-whites in the MLB in the 1920's when Hornsby played. The first Columbian-born player played in 1902; the first Cuban-born in 1911.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/firsts/first13.shtml

When Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier, it was for blacks. Latinos were already in the game.

I don't know why you're so against comparing players in different eras, though. Sure, we don't know how Hornsby would really have done if we was born in 1980 and you can't directly compare averages, HRs, etc., but you can compare a player to his peers, place him within his era, and come up with who stands out the most.
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Re: Pujols at 2B?

Postby Whisp » Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:14 am

1920 vs. 2000

how fast did the pitchers pitch?
was there as much movement on their pitches?
was there as much variety from pitch to pitch?
were players as fast in the field?
were players as adept at (getting to and) catching the ball?
were gloves as good for catching?
were defensive players as well conditioned?
were defensive players and managers as smart at positioning?
why were stats so different back then? why were people hitting over .400? why were so few home runs hit?
why could pitchers pitch so many innings? were they not pushing themselves to the limit?

it's nice to honor the past, the stats, the players of old. but you simply cannot compare them as athletes to today's players. there are too many reasons to think that players from the past played a different game of baseball and if they hit in today's game, they'd realize they are facing a much harder competition. you can't judge by stats alone, although thats what youre doing.
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