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W vs QS

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W vs QS

Postby WyldStallyn » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:32 pm

how many of you play in leagues that use quality starts instead of wins? the managers in my keeper league like to play around with the settings each offseason, and i was thinking of bringing this up (i know, long ways away. but i cant help but think ahead). what do you all feel are the strengths and weaknesses of these two stats?

also, this last offseason 2 managers were lobbying hard for having 2 catcher spots, which i think is totally rediculous. why two catchers and not first basemen? or shortstops? it seems rediculous to me, but are there other thoughts on this?
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Re: W vs QS

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:43 pm

When I set up my main league a few years ago, I thought replacing Wins with Quality Starts. I ended up going with Wins minus Losses instead and even between vanilla Wins vs QS's, I think Wins is superior. Here's my rationale.

* Most of what QS measures is already covered by other scored statistics: ERA directly and correlated with WHIP and K's.
* Wins are park neutral; a pitcher starting in Petco or Minute Maid have a higher probability of getting a Q/S than someone starting in Chase, Cinergy, Citizens Bank, or Fenway by virtue of the field.
* Wins are league neutral; a pitcher starting in the NL has a generally higher probability of getting a Q/S than if they started in the AL.
* Wins are weather neutral; it's easier to hold down scoring on a cold or damp day than a warm and sunny and Wins pits two pitchers pitching in the same conditions against each other.
* There's something about a pitcher doing just enough to keep their team in it, holding onto that 1 or 2 run lead.
* Wins are a nice old-time stat that it's nice to keep around.

The argument for Q/S is that Wins depend upon your team's offense which has nothing to do with a pitcher's skill and you're penalizing highly-skilled pitchers on the Giants or Nationals in favor of more mediocre pitchers on winning teams. And this is a fair criticism, but I would say it's outweighed, in the aggregate, by the factors above. Not saying it's a conclusive rationale, but that's my logic.
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Re: W vs QS

Postby deerayfan072 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:47 pm

WyldStallyn wrote:how many of you play in leagues that use quality starts instead of wins? the managers in my keeper league like to play around with the settings each offseason, and i was thinking of bringing this up (i know, long ways away. but i cant help but think ahead). what do you all feel are the strengths and weaknesses of these two stats?

also, this last offseason 2 managers were lobbying hard for having 2 catcher spots, which i think is totally rediculous. why two catchers and not first basemen? or shortstops? it seems rediculous to me, but are there other thoughts on this?


We are switching to QS in my money league. I think it is better than Wins because I really get tired of people winning W's because they have MR that get a win and they have crappy pitching. I also think it is unfair for pitchers that are on terrible teams to go 6,7,8, even 9 innings and you get nothing in the W cat because the pen blows it or the offense does not score
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Re: W vs QS

Postby Russell James » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:48 pm

I like to have both in the pitching categories. I like QS because it helps out the good pitchers on weak teams.

If I had to choose between the 2 I would choose Wins for the same reasons that Matthias has listed.
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Re: W vs QS

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:34 pm

deerayfan072 wrote:We are switching to QS in my money league. I think it is better than Wins because I really get tired of people winning W's because they have MR that get a win and they have crappy pitching.

Yah. Our Wins minus Losses stat is Starters only.

Relief wins get added to saves and holds (and you lose one for blown saves and relief losses). I also couldn't stand the closer blowing it in the top of the 9th, losing the save, but then getting the more valuable Win when his team came back in the bottom of the inning.
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Re: W vs QS

Postby deerayfan072 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:44 pm

Matthias wrote:
deerayfan072 wrote:We are switching to QS in my money league. I think it is better than Wins because I really get tired of people winning W's because they have MR that get a win and they have crappy pitching.

Yah. Our Wins minus Losses stat is Starters only.

Relief wins get added to saves and holds (and you lose one for blown saves and relief losses). I also couldn't stand the closer blowing it in the top of the 9th, losing the save, but then getting the more valuable Win when his team came back in the bottom of the inning.


How do you do that? Not on Yahoo?
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Re: W vs QS

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:47 pm

deerayfan072 wrote:
Matthias wrote:
deerayfan072 wrote:We are switching to QS in my money league. I think it is better than Wins because I really get tired of people winning W's because they have MR that get a win and they have crappy pitching.

Yah. Our Wins minus Losses stat is Starters only.

Relief wins get added to saves and holds (and you lose one for blown saves and relief losses). I also couldn't stand the closer blowing it in the top of the 9th, losing the save, but then getting the more valuable Win when his team came back in the bottom of the inning.

How do you do that? Not on Yahoo?

Sportsline. They let you create any stat that uses any stat they track by doing custom formulas. I even considered doing Bill James' RC/27 stat (I still have the calculations in our league stats page) but decided it was close enough to OPS that the extra confusion wasn't worth it.
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Re: W vs QS

Postby MrSnider » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:12 am

Strangely enough, we are actually using both in my league this year as an experiment to determine which we like better. I'll try to revisit this topic at the end of the season when we have a clear idea how the aggregates correlate.
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Re: W vs QS

Postby Madison » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:59 am

Matthias wrote:Sportsline. They let you create any stat that uses any stat they track by doing custom formulas. I even considered doing Bill James' RC/27 stat (I still have the calculations in our league stats page) but decided it was close enough to OPS that the extra confusion wasn't worth it.


Not to derail the thread, but I've played leagues that also did that with steals. Lost a steal for every caught stealing. ;-D Sportsline's default league settings were that way quite a few years ago.


Back on topic, personally, it's a tough one. Good pitchers with bad hitting behind them gain value, but sub-par pitchers gain value as well. I'm just not fond of awarding a starting pitcher anything when his line reads:

6 innings, 8 hits, 4 walks, 3 earned runs.

That's an ERA of 4.50 and a WHIP of 2.00, yet he gets a quality start for every single one of those he puts up. Yuck. :-P

I'm actually not sure a "perfect" solution is out there just yet. Wins aren't the answer, Quality Starts isn't the answer, so what is, is a very good question...
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Re: W vs QS

Postby cwrtlm » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:04 am

I am thinking of bringing this up in our league as well. Maybe 5 points per QS and 5 points per W? Something along those lines, right now it is 10 points per W and nothing for a QS. Perfect example last night, both Felix Hernandez and Smoltz pitched great games but Felix didn't get a decision and Smoltz got a loss. Both scored a combined 35 points in my league, while Verlander and Wang both got Wins but only scored 38 points. Frustrating for both of them that Smoltz couldn't get the Run-Support and Felix couldn't stay another inning to get the W. Atleast in a QS situation they would have had alittle something to show for good outings!
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