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Pitchers hitting 8th in the MIL lineup

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Pitchers hitting 8th in the MIL lineup

Postby Nomarrrrrrrrrr » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:42 pm

I know all about the "2nd leadoff guy" idea, but it is stupid. It makes alot more sense to have Kendall hit 8th and get his hits with guys like Hart and Hall, who can run, on base than to get the pitcher out of the way quicker and have Kendall lead off the next inning. It also takes the bat away from guys that have some power like Hardy, Hart and Hall.

Look at it this way, in times through the order where Kendall gets a hit and the pitcher gets out, wouldn't you rather Kendall get a hit (possibly for RBI) and then the pitcher get an out to end the inning (or bunt Kendall over if there are less than 2 outs) and then have the top of the order leadoff rather than have the pitcher end the inning and kendall lead off the following inning? In times through the order where Kendall doesn't get a hit it doesn't really matter because they will both be outs BUT Kendall might drive in a run with a sac fly which the pitcher is unlikely to do.

If Kendall were such a catalyst that having him lead off an inning is enough to make up for the negatives I describe above than why is he not leading off in the lineup? There is just no logical explanation to doing this with a pitcher that can't hit.
Last edited by Nomarrrrrrrrrr on Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pitchers hitting 8th in the MIL lineup

Postby Grounded Polo » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:46 pm

Having the pitcher bat eighth is another example of why the NL Central is always the worst division in baseball.
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Re: Pitchers hitting 8th in the MIL lineup

Postby Nomarrrrrrrrrr » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:50 pm

It is alot different than in the AL where it makes sense to put a speed guy 9th with your swing for the fences guy 8th because you don't want that slow power hitter to be on infront of your leadoff hitter to slow him down. Cory Patterson was the perfect 9th in the order hitter IMO. He could drive in runs if they were there and he had the speed in the few times he actually did get on.
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Re: Pitchers hitting 8th in the MIL lineup

Postby Ender » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:50 pm

Batting the pitcher 8th is better in almost every way than batting him 9th. The AL does the same basic thing, they stick their worst hitter #8(the C on most teams) and then a lower power ok OBP guy 9th in most cases.

Having guys on for your #1, #2 hitters is much more important than driving in your #6, #7. So far it has worked out great for the Brewers, been very rare that I've thought I wish Kendall were batting 8th for that plate appearance.
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Re: Pitchers hitting 8th in the MIL lineup

Postby Nomarrrrrrrrrr » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:58 pm

Ender wrote:Batting the pitcher 8th is better in almost every way than batting him 9th. The AL does the same basic thing, they stick their worst hitter #8(the C on most teams) and then a lower power ok OBP guy 9th in most cases.

Having guys on for your #1, #2 hitters is much more important than driving in your #6, #7. So far it has worked out great for the Brewers, been very rare that I've thought I wish Kendall were batting 8th for that plate appearance.


There are only 2 ways that Kendall gets on for the top of the order as you say is important. Either the pitcher gets out and then Kendall leads off the next inning (wouldn't you rather have your leadoff guy leadoff?) OR the pitcher gets out with less than 2 outs and Kendall gets on to extend the inning...in that case, wouldn't you rather Kendall get that hit hitting 8th and then the pitcher bunt him over? It is never better to have the out first and then the hit as opposed to the hit and then the out. So what exactly are you talking about? You don't want guys on for your leadoff hitter, you want them leading off.
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Re: Pitchers hitting 8th in the MIL lineup

Postby Nomarrrrrrrrrr » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:59 pm

The pitcher is almost a sure out and he takes the bat away from the guy in front of him. The higher you move that up in the lineup the more idiotic you are.
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Re: Pitchers hitting 8th in the MIL lineup

Postby Tavish » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:03 pm

Image

Bury me a Royal.
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Re: Pitchers hitting 8th in the MIL lineup

Postby Grounded Polo » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Ender wrote:Batting the pitcher 8th is better in almost every way than batting him 9th. The AL does the same basic thing, they stick their worst hitter #8(the C on most teams) and then a lower power ok OBP guy 9th in most cases.

Having guys on for your #1, #2 hitters is much more important than driving in your #6, #7. So far it has worked out great for the Brewers, been very rare that I've thought I wish Kendall were batting 8th for that plate appearance.


I still don't want my pitcher getting any additional at-bats. When Milwaukee plays the Mets last weekend, having the pitcher batting eighth hurt them in at least 2 key situations.
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Re: Pitchers hitting 8th in the MIL lineup

Postby Ender » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:08 pm

There are only 2 ways that Kendall gets on for the top of the order as you say is important. Either the pitcher gets out and then Kendall leads off the next inning (wouldn't you rather have your leadoff guy leadoff?)


Kendall still gets out 65% of the time or so. I'd much rather have the pitcher make the 3rd out than Kendall make the third out and have the pitcher leading off.


OR the pitcher gets out with less than 2 outs and Kendall gets on to extend the inning...in that case, wouldn't you rather Kendall get that hit hitting 8th and then the pitcher bunt him over?


No I'd rather have the pitcher bunting guys over for Kendall to drive them in because Kendall is a low power high OBP extreme groundball hitter. It is much better for him to come up with 2 outs and a runner on 2nd than 1 out and a runner on 1st and the pitcher behind him.

It is never better to have the out first and then the hit as opposed to the hit and then the out. So what exactly are you talking about? You don't want guys on for your leadoff hitter, you want them leading off.


Not when your leadoff hitter has 20+ HR power in his bat.

There are exactly two situations where this setup fails.

1) A runner is on 2nd or 3rd with 2 outs for the pitcher. In this case I'd much rather have had Kendall up.
2) The 8 spot leads off the inning. In this case I'd rather Kendall gets his single or out before the pitcher so he can bunt.

Every other situation in the game I'd rather have Kendall 9th and the pitcher 8th. The every other situation has happened a whole lot more than those two situations.
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Re: Pitchers hitting 8th in the MIL lineup

Postby chipper » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:12 pm

Nomarrrrrrrrrr wrote:The pitcher is almost a sure out and he takes the bat away from the guy in front of him. The higher you move that up in the lineup the more idiotic you are.

Ok Hank :-D :-D


Grounded Polo wrote:I still don't want my pitcher getting any additional at-bats. When Milwaukee plays the Mets last weekend, having the pitcher batting eighth hurt them in at least 2 key situations.

I don't think that's really a factor. The pitcher get's hit for that 3rd (sometimes 4th) at bat whether they're hitting 8th or 9th. They're not going to get an additional at bat because of that one spot.
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