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Rule Changes AFTER season starts

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Re: Rule Changes AFTER season starts

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:24 am

Oatsdad wrote:
Matthias wrote:What if there's no specific rules at all other than lineup requirements? And then two guys decide to make one uber-team? It's within the commissioner's discretion to say that something is happening that is not on the up-and-up and it's going to stop.

As others have stated, collusion is explicitly against the rules at all fantasy sites. Streaming and making lots of roster moves aren't. If you want a limit, you do that BEFORE the season starts - you don't change rules midway and seriously muck with someone's strategy just because you don't like that strategy...

That completely ignores the basis of the point. I'll break this down a little bit simpler.

Argument: If someone isn't prohibited in the rules, you can't say it is once the season starts.
Response: Even if something isn't explicitly stated as illegal in the rules, the Commissioner is there to make sure the league operates well and that includes prohibiting things that are not in the rules but are wrong.

You saying that collusion is prohibited at all fantasy sites is wrong and irrelevant. Leagues make their own rules; they don't wait for websites to define them... maybe in public leagues, but not in private ones. Also, I challenge you to find where Yahoo, ESPN, and Sportsline say it's illegal (I won't make you prove it for all fantasy sites, just the big 3). It's only because you all have this big anti-collusion kick (even though you don't know how you'd ever prove it) that you accept that making that illegal in the absence of an explicit rule is ok whereas anything else, not so much.
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Re: Rule Changes AFTER season starts

Postby CrashDavisAllStars » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:27 pm

Trojan Pony wrote:In the leagues I run, off-season rule changes are subject to majority approval and in-season rule changes are subject to UNANIMOUS approval. If even one manager objects, the rule should not be change in-season. So the only rule changes that would realistically happen are silly oversights and really obvious issues. Other than that, you already drafted, it's too late, it wouldn't be fair. Learn from your mistakes, live with it for this year, and vote on the changes before next season.




This is the most reasonable argument yet made on this issue...I agree completly...What this manager did is Bush league...My guys would revolt if I tried something like this in the middle of a season...If this happened to me in a league I didn't care about it , I would not waste any more of my time with it...You can't try and win on a level playing field if someone is always changing the rules on you mid-season...
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Re: Rule Changes AFTER season starts

Postby Oatsdad » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:12 pm

Matthias wrote:You saying that collusion is prohibited at all fantasy sites is wrong and irrelevant. Leagues make their own rules; they don't wait for websites to define them... maybe in public leagues, but not in private ones. Also, I challenge you to find where Yahoo, ESPN, and Sportsline say it's illegal (I won't make you prove it for all fantasy sites, just the big 3).


Yahoo:

"No owner will engage in any action that may be deemed to be collusive (two or more owners agreeing to make moves that benefit one team, but not the other)"

ESPN:

"B: Collusive transactions

Collusion occurs when one team makes moves to benefit another team, without trying to improve its own position. One-sided trades are an obvious example of this. Another example is when a player drop is made so another team can pick up that player. Teams found in violation of this policy will be cancelled and their owners prohibited from participating in future ESPN Fantasy Games."

CBS:

"Collusion
CBSII does not permit two or more owners in the same league to work together to better one team at the expense of the other (for example, making one-sided trades, one team dropping highly-rated players so the other team can pick them up, etc.)."

Why would you challenge someone to prove something that can easily show you're absolutely WRONG? %-6
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Re: Rule Changes AFTER season starts

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:23 pm

I stand corrected.
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Re: Rule Changes AFTER season starts

Postby noseeum » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:39 am

Matthias wrote:
Oatsdad wrote:
Matthias wrote:What if there's no specific rules at all other than lineup requirements? And then two guys decide to make one uber-team? It's within the commissioner's discretion to say that something is happening that is not on the up-and-up and it's going to stop.

As others have stated, collusion is explicitly against the rules at all fantasy sites. Streaming and making lots of roster moves aren't. If you want a limit, you do that BEFORE the season starts - you don't change rules midway and seriously muck with someone's strategy just because you don't like that strategy...

That completely ignores the basis of the point. I'll break this down a little bit simpler.

Argument: If someone isn't prohibited in the rules, you can't say it is once the season starts.
Response: Even if something isn't explicitly stated as illegal in the rules, the Commissioner is there to make sure the league operates well and that includes prohibiting things that are not in the rules but are wrong.


Matthias, this makes no sense at all. In my leagues, the commish is not God. He's still a member of the league. He's meant to do what's best for the league. No one died and made him king. It's not up to him to decide what's "wrong." It's up to him to interpret the rules and rule fairly. Not everyone in the world thinks streaming is wrong. There's a difference between "I don't think my league will be as fun if we allow streaming. It's pre-draft. Why don't we make a rule to prevent streaming?" and ,"Streaming is bush league. We all should have known it's bush league [um, no we shouldn't have]. No conversation was needed about that. So I'm banning it after the fact, and I don't care what anyone else says."

If the commish decides to get moralistic about his own point of view, as you are coming close to saying by implying streaming is "wrong" [and yes, I know you didn't mention streaming above, but that's the issue we're talking about.], than he can justify any BS move he wishes, and he can destroy his league in the process. As I said much earlier in this thread, if you setup a shallow head to head league (think 12 team MLB) with daily transactions, no transaction limits, and no innings pitched limit, you are creating a league where streaming is an INHERENT CHARACTERISTIC. You are encouraging the practice. Any logical owner will consider the strategy, especially come playoff time. And for a commish to lay down rules that encourage streaming, allow a draft to occur, and allow two weeks of games to occur, and THEN decide streaming is "wrong", is completely ridiculous. It shows nothing but inexperience.

The streamers are owners in this league too and they have rights. The commish needs to respect those rights. And, as the original poster said, he's been switching 2 out of 7 pitchers or something. It's not even blatant streaming.

It's perfectly fine for you or anyone to say, "I hate streaming. I don't want to play in leagues that allow it." But someone else has a complete right to say the opposite: "I love streaming, and I think it should be allowed in shallow leagues." So long as it's not explicitly prevented and discussed ahead of the draft, or agreed to by the league in whatever process works (commissioner fiat NOT being one of them), it's available to all owners, it's valid, and it's not wrong.
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Re: Rule Changes AFTER season starts

Postby jackmcmanus21 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:56 am

good points Nos...I don't like changing rules after the season period unless its something that everyone unanimously agrees on
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Re: Rule Changes AFTER season starts

Postby CBMGreatOne » Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:02 pm

I'm sorry, but changing rules after the season starts is wrong. It is so wrong that the only way it could ever be right is for the league to UNANIMOUSLY decide that they want the change.

Streaming is part of the game. If you don't cap the moves before the start of the season you CANNOT cap them after the start. It is not within your rights as commissioner.

This shouldn't even be a debate. There is no legitimate counterargument.

A guy drafted to be a streamer in a league with no moves limit. If you wanted to foil that strategy, you had to disclose as much before the draft, END of story. :-o
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Re: Rule Changes AFTER season starts

Postby MTUCache » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:04 am

CBMGreatOne wrote:I'm sorry, but changing rules after the season starts is wrong. It is so wrong that the only way it could ever be right is for the league to UNANIMOUSLY decide that they want the change.

Streaming is part of the game. If you don't cap the moves before the start of the season you CANNOT cap them after the start. It is not within your rights as commissioner.

This shouldn't even be a debate. There is no legitimate counterargument.

A guy drafted to be a streamer in a league with no moves limit. If you wanted to foil that strategy, you had to disclose as much before the draft, END of story. :-o


Ditto... if this is a "competitive" league, where people are going to try their hardest to win, they're going to exploit so-called "loopholes" like this. If everyone knows about the rules ahead of time, this isn't angle-shooting, it's strategy. Plain and simple, it's completely within the rules of the league (as they were set up), and it's a valid plan.

As the commissioner, it's your job to close the loopholes you don't want before the season, and create a league setup that encourages play as you see fit. If you don't want people streaming, you could put a cap on moves, you could add a bunch of negative and averaging categories, etc, etc, etc. This is simple, basic, commissioner stuff. If you're lazy and just throw a league together without looking at any consequences, of course there's going to be loopholes, and of course they're going to be exploited... that's how competitive people compete.

Some leagues are going to be offense-heavy, is it unfair if one owner notices this before the draft and spends his first 12 picks on offense? Some leagues have very few counting categories for pitching and no SP-only slots, is it unfair for an owner to draft no starters and only closers? No... it's strategy. Forming your team based around the defined rules of the game. Simple as that. If the commish isn't smart enough to resolve these things before hand, he probably shouldn't be the commish. If the rest of the owners aren't smart enough to find their own strategy, and draft teams straight off the Yahoo!-board, that's their fault.

Now, if this is a "friendly" league, maybe the managers in question would be willing to tone it down, for the sake of the friendships and fun of the league, and will listen to reason without the rest of the league resorting to changing the rules mid-stream or abandoning the league altogether. If this is truly a friendly league, changing the rules shouldn't be necessary, as the owners in question will agree that they need to calm it down.

Changing the rules of the game in the middle of the game is absolute garbage. This falls entirely on the heads of the commish in my opinion.

As a commish myself, I'm proud of the fact that I spend a lot of time creating a balanced rule-set for my league, and that so far no owners have been able to create an advantage for themselves by thinking outside of the box. I've got teams punting saves, teams streaming, teams loading up on relievers, etc, etc, and none of them have created an unfair environment in my league yet, because I put in the fore-thought and effort before the season to put together the right categories, position spots, innings-max, etc, etc. There's a lot more to this job than just signing people up before the draft.
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Re: Rule Changes AFTER season starts

Postby duckbillgates » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:30 pm

There are situations that arise that may call for clarification of the rules. Being a commissioner is tough, and there is always something strange that comes up.

That said, I don't think it is ever fair to change a rule that can in any way affect someone's draft strategy.

For example, I like to wait on pitching and then overload on #2-#3-#4 types so I can play matchups and manage my innings pitched limit.

Were a commissioner to decide that he didn't like this and switched us to weekly roster changes, I would be out of the league in no time.

Very similar to your situation. Streaming pitchers is a problem that should have been anticipated and addressed before the season started. You can't change the rules on it now.
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Re: Rule Changes AFTER season starts

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:17 am

MTUCache wrote:Ditto... if this is a "competitive" league, where people are going to try their hardest to win, they're going to exploit so-called "loopholes" like this. If everyone knows about the rules ahead of time, this isn't angle-shooting, it's strategy. Plain and simple, it's completely within the rules of the league (as they were set up), and it's a valid plan.

Look, man, I'm a lawyer in real life. I don't want to play one in fantasy baseball. Yes, the league should be set up properly from the get-go. Yes, I put a lot of thought into how I set up my league and how I structure the rules. Yes, in my league I've already kobosh'ed streaming with 60 move limits. But... I'm not perfect. You're not perfect. Noone's perfect. Any system of rules is going to have the possibility of unintended consequences. And not for streaming per se but for something else, possibly... if I realized there was a loophole that went against the spirit of the league, made it no fun, and stopped rewarding quality players in favor of a loophole, I would put the kobosh on it then rather than letting the year play out and ruining the purpose of the enterprise.

You guys really need to pick up some Ayn Rand; I think you'd really dig.
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