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Texas Polygamy Situation

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Texas Polygamy Situation

Postby sportsaddict » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:46 pm

I just saw some Polygamist mothers on CNN just now... I was so fascinated that I missed an entire inning of the Cardinals' game watching these women.

Their children are now with the state of Texas- what do you guys think of the situation?

I don't know a whole lot about polygamy, but it really does look like these women are screwed- they love their children, but when they were asked about their husbands, they just told Larry King "my interest is only with my children."

The women all denied their were sexual relations and marriages between older men and young girl, but this isn't in line with just about everyone else that says that kind of stuff does go on.
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Re: Texas Polygamy Situation

Postby RugbyD » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:10 pm

I don't claim to be well-informed on the situation, but in the general sense I'm against shows of force like this, especially under a search warrant so weak (from what I've heard) that it jeopardizes a lot of whatever 'evidence' may have been obtained.

If people want to arrange marriages for 12 year old girls, that's their business and not mine so long as its not done for people who would otherwise be child molesters in the outside world.

Marriages that young among similar aged people are not uncommon in multiple societies and that's their business, not mine. Adulthood is a very abstract concept. 100 and 200 years ago 13 was plenty of an adult as far as responsibility and maturity was concerned b/c childrearing back then was much different than it is now. The same standards could very well apply to this group of people in terms of how they raise their children compared to the average American (whatever that means).

There nothing criminal about someone having a kid if their body allows it; that's just nature taking its course. I'm not sure age of consent concepts are easily applied here either. I would guess that women are prepared for this way of life from the beginning and are free to accpet or reject certain premises. So long as no sexual act is physically imposed upon someone against their will, I don't think just looking at age is an appropriate benchmark for evaluation.
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Re: Texas Polygamy Situation

Postby knapplc » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:25 pm

That's an awfully pollyannaish way of looking at this situation, Rugby. The allegations of forced marriage and rape are rampant in this situation. Simply passing it off as "if it bleeds, it breeds" is WAAAAAY over-simplifying things. Nature is one thing. Crime is entirely another. Surely you're not saying that these 12-year-old girls consented to every one of these "marriages," are you?
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Re: Texas Polygamy Situation

Postby Tavish » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:31 pm

knapplc wrote:That's an awfully pollyannaish way of looking at this situation, Rugby. The allegations of forced marriage and rape are rampant in this situation. Simply passing it off as "if it bleeds, it breeds" is WAAAAAY over-simplifying things. Nature is one thing. Crime is entirely another. Surely you're not saying that these 12-year-old girls consented to every one of these "marriages," are you?

I don't think it is any different than oversimplifying it the other way and saying that a 12 year old girl is incapable of consenting to marriage or childbirth.
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Re: Texas Polygamy Situation

Postby bigken117 » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:46 pm

RugbyD wrote:If people want to arrange marriages for 12 year old girls, that's their business and not mine so long as its not done for people who would otherwise be child molesters in the outside world.
......
So long as no sexual act is physically imposed upon someone against their will, I don't think just looking at age is an appropriate benchmark for evaluation.


Just because a 12 year old girl doesn't put up a fight against a 50 year old man after 12 years of brainwashing that it's what she's supposed to do doesn't mean it's not against her will. While my knowledge of the laws around child molesting is limited, I will say these 'people' qualify as such.
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Re: Texas Polygamy Situation

Postby RugbyD » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:53 pm

bigken117 wrote:
RugbyD wrote:If people want to arrange marriages for 12 year old girls, that's their business and not mine so long as its not done for people who would otherwise be child molesters in the outside world.
......
So long as no sexual act is physically imposed upon someone against their will, I don't think just looking at age is an appropriate benchmark for evaluation.


Just because a 12 year old girl doesn't put up a fight against a 50 year old man after 12 years of brainwashing that it's what she's supposed to do doesn't mean it's not against her will. While my knowledge of the laws around child molesting is limited, I will say these 'people' qualify as such.

I don't see how this is any less brainwashing than threatening people with hell if they are not abstinent until marriage. As far as I was ever led to believe, nothing is worse than hell, even rape.
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Re: Texas Polygamy Situation

Postby knapplc » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:53 pm

Tavish wrote:
knapplc wrote:That's an awfully pollyannaish way of looking at this situation, Rugby. The allegations of forced marriage and rape are rampant in this situation. Simply passing it off as "if it bleeds, it breeds" is WAAAAAY over-simplifying things. Nature is one thing. Crime is entirely another. Surely you're not saying that these 12-year-old girls consented to every one of these "marriages," are you?

I don't think it is any different than oversimplifying it the other way and saying that a 12 year old girl is incapable of consenting to marriage or childbirth.

That's swell in an abstract sort of way, but in this real world situation, these 12-year-olds were raped. If you want to split hairs and say that only some of these 12-year-olds were raped that's your gig, not mine. To me - and maybe I'm kind of crazy or something - but to me, even one 12-year-old getting raped is too many. Are you saying that's not how you see it? :-o
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Re: Texas Polygamy Situation

Postby knapplc » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:54 pm

RugbyD wrote:
bigken117 wrote:
RugbyD wrote:If people want to arrange marriages for 12 year old girls, that's their business and not mine so long as its not done for people who would otherwise be child molesters in the outside world.
......
So long as no sexual act is physically imposed upon someone against their will, I don't think just looking at age is an appropriate benchmark for evaluation.


Just because a 12 year old girl doesn't put up a fight against a 50 year old man after 12 years of brainwashing that it's what she's supposed to do doesn't mean it's not against her will. While my knowledge of the laws around child molesting is limited, I will say these 'people' qualify as such.

I don't see how this is any less brainwashing than threatening people with hell if they are not abstinent until marriage. As far as I was ever led to believe, nothing is worse than hell, even rape.

Rugby, have you ever talked to a pre-teen who's been raped? I'm guessing "no," with the cavalier way you're treating this.
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Re: Texas Polygamy Situation

Postby thedude » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:57 pm

What happens to the girls is awful, but it is also a screwed up situation for the boys from these polygamy sects. Since there are only so many women to go around, they expel teenage boys. These kids are thrown out onto the street with with no homes, and little to no money at a very young age, so that the older men can have the young girls.
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Re: Texas Polygamy Situation

Postby RugbyD » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:00 pm

knapplc wrote:That's an awfully pollyannaish way of looking at this situation, Rugby. The allegations of forced marriage and rape are rampant in this situation. Simply passing it off as "if it bleeds, it breeds" is WAAAAAY over-simplifying things. Nature is one thing. Crime is entirely another. Surely you're not saying that these 12-year-old girls consented to every one of these "marriages," are you?

Like I said, I'm not familiar with the specifics here. Forced/arranged marriages are not an uncommon religious practice. As preposterous as I think the entire concept of organized religion is, this country was founded on freedom of religion. No picking and choosing allowed. Just b/c one religion (rape aside. physical force is a crime.) doesn't conform to current age-based stereotyes doesn't make it invalid. Keep in mind that these people clearly aren't raised the same way you would raise a 12 year old.
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