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Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby shawngee03 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:12 pm

where did enron and a duck come from???? :-b

i highly suggest posting a link to this thread. i am in a league w friends every year who seem like these guys and arent hardcore FBBers and dont play in as many leagues as myself. in every sport every year it seems like somebody figures out teh new "loophole" and everybody gets all upset(except me and a few other guys who realize its not a loophole but rather a strategy). ive linked them to teh cafe and after reading some outside thoughts on teh subject they realize that they were in the wrong, or maybe just thinking about it wrongly(nice word i know).

the cafe not only helps you excel at fantasy sports....its also responsible for holding together friendships. thank you fantasy cafe, my heart goes out to you :-D
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby MTUCache » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:15 pm

Shaffe wrote:it is the responsibility of any fantasy manager worth his salt to read the rules of the league for that year before the draft. read them, understand them, and then build your team to maximize your results within the rules.


Exactly... the idea of drafting the "Best Players" out there, regardless of potision, simply because it's the "right thing to do" is downright stupid. It's completely obvious that the fantasy model of the game does not perfectly match the exact game of baseball. There are certain assumptions made in order to simplify the game and frankly make it more balanced. The idea that they all just happened to draft 6 or more starters in a league with a 1200IP max is just plain stupidity. The rules were laid out well before the draft, and there's no reason why a manager shouldn't shape his team around those rules in order to maximize his team's chances of success.

I think you should start a counter-argument, arguing against the unethical and ungentlmenly like behavior of those managers who have punted saves. Or, better yet, those managers who have gone against the spirit of baseball by drafting an outfield consisting of 3 corner outfielders and no center fielder. That's just as much a "loophole" created by your league's rules, because it doesn't state that there's a difference between OF/OF/OF and LF/CF/RF. Should there be a "gentlemens' agreement" that says that everybody should use one outfielder from each position?

How about a gentlemens' agreement about having Utility players from the NL??? That seems to be against the "spirit of the game" as well... there's no DHs in that league, so why should someone be able to use them as such?

These are just a small, small sample of the kinds of simplifications and assumptions we make in our fantasy baseball model in order to come up with a game that is as fun, easy, competitive, and fair as possible. If you don't read the rules, you can't cry about them. That lesson started with Candyland.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby Foul Pops » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:20 pm

None of your actions are even close to unethical.

It reminds me of a few years ago when we had Marques Colston in our TE spot because he was TE eligible. People wanted us to move him to WR simply because it was the right thing to do. We claimed that he was a waiver pick-up, so anyone could have been enjoying the same benefit we were. The rule is you go by yahoo's listings, why should I go change it.

It's kind of like Josh Willingham, when he played LF and qualified as a catcher. Or Ryan Bruan playing the OF but qualifying at 3b. Maybe you should scan these other owners rosters to make sure they are "legit". Does one of them have Braun in their 3rd base spot? If so, call him out.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby noseeum » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:23 pm

Why don't you just post 1700 of the millions of articles all over the internet discussing whether punting a category is a good strategy or not?

Punting categories is a textbook fantasy strategy. You guys are not doing anything ground breaking. It's discussed ad nauseum every all over the place. If these owners stopped reading their tattered copies of 1980s strat-o-matic guides and actually opened up a stinkin' web browser, they might see that others have tried this and not been burned at the stake by their league mates.

There are plusses and minuses to the strategy which astute owners can take advantage of, as others have pointed out. Really, I think you should call a sort of time out about this issue in particular, and have a more general discussion.

The other owners' position is that if you see an opportunity to improve your team's chances of winning based on your league's setup, you should ignore it and pretend you never noticed it. That is ridiculous on its face. What if you had negatives for Ks and caught stealing? That would dramatically impact the values of a lot of players. Should you still draft Adam Dunn where ESPN ranks him? No, you're supposed to maximize the success of your team based on the unique rules of your league. These are not loopholes. They are inherent characteristics of your league.

A loophole is something like "yahoo has a glitch where as long as you don't move your recovered guy from the DL spot, you can keep him there for an extra week, giving you a temporary extra spot." [that's not true, BTW, but just a potential example]. A loophole is certainly not "I am putting a relief pitcher my P slot, which is reserved for both SPs and RPs."

Try to take the emotion out of it, and even better, don't discuss on the board too much. Call the most indignant guy and have a conversation with him. Explain to him that you are taking risks and leaving yourself vulnerable by pursuing this strategy. That everyone has limited resources, and you are taking a risk by using them the way you are. For one, you are leaving SPs on the board for those who wish to use them. They can be had for a lower cost than if you and the other guy were going after them. It's now 6 owners using SPs instead of 8. Tell him this was discussed in the offseason. If for some reason he didn't understand the opportunities, that's not your fault.

I mean, calling this unsportsmanlike is like saying Toyota cheated or was "unsportsmanlike" by making the Prius and other high mileage cars long before the big three realized people were losing interest in gas guzzlers. No, Toyota was smart, took a big risk, and it paid off. Maybe you're being dumb and maybe you're being smart, but you picked a strategy, you're taking a risk, and you have a right to see if it works. That is, after all, the entire point of playing this game.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby shawngee03 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:25 pm

Foul Pops wrote:None of your actions are even close to unethical.

It reminds me of a few years ago when we had Marques Colston in our TE spot because he was TE eligible. People wanted us to move him to WR simply because it was the right thing to do. We claimed that he was a waiver pick-up, so anyone could have been enjoying the same benefit we were. The rule is you go by yahoo's listings, why should I go change it.

It's kind of like Josh Willingham, when he played LF and qualified as a catcher. Or Ryan Bruan playing the OF but qualifying at 3b. Maybe you should scan these other owners rosters to make sure they are "legit". Does one of them have Braun in their 3rd base spot? If so, call him out.


great point. why is this only limited to pitchers. and does your league use a UTIL spot? if so bring that up, as its the batters equivilent to P. if someone has a guy who steals in that spot call him out for trying to hoard all the steals
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby Yoda » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:29 pm

I would just ignore them and if it gets too annoying, then just find another league to play in.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby noseeum » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:30 pm

Shaffe wrote:talk with your commish about the matter and encourage him or her to take action to issue a statement on the matter or - worst case scenario - remove some people form the league.


This is a good point. If your commish is on the side against you, then you have a real problem. The commish is supposed to enforce the rules, and you guys are clearly within the rules. He should defend the minority in this case. He should issue a statement saying what you guys are doing is perfectly legit and the discussion is over. Everyone in the league has a right to do what you guys are doing, so there is no distinct advantage. You guys are paying customers too and have a right to run your team as you see fit without two years worth of harassment from the peanut gallery.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby kaiser » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:36 pm

This is an interesting thread.

It is amazing to me that those guys in your league would be complaining about such simple, basic strategy. There is nothing else i can say here that hasn't already been said, so I will simply add my voice to the chorus that says you are perfectly within the boundries of ethical behavior, and those other guys are lunatics. Stick to your guns. I would suggest, as others have, to send them the link to this thread. Also, I like the idea of asking the commish to make a ruling on this and post it. If he can't or won't, it may be time to go somewhere where there are real fantasy players playing, instead of these whining clowns.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby Doughhead » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:53 pm

Eagle Baseball wrote:So you have 2 managers who are vocal in changing the rules (to a questionable setting imo) from last year and than these 2 managers draft teams that take advantage of the rule changes.


Actually, this is exactly the opposite of what we were attempting to do. The changes that were made were made to placate the people who wanted to put an end to using starting pitchers who qualified as relievers in order to maximize gains in innings, wins, and strikeouts. Innings pitched was removed as a category and the innings cap was set low (1200) to prevent people from loading up on SP/RPs to get as many starts as possible. We replaced IP with Quality Starts in order to keep an emphasis on starting pitching stats. My understanding was that the inclusion of Quality Starts was designed to limit the value of relief pitchers, which increased substantially when we scrapped IP as a category and set an IP cap. However, I still thought RPs would be more valuable than they had been in year's past (though that wasn't really reflected in the draft, and now I know why). As I said in my original post, I still don't understand why these guys haven't gone to the wire to pick up the remaining closers if they think it's such as advantage--unless it's out of a sense of gentlemanly fair play. But I can honestly say that my sole objective when implementing changes in the offseason was to create a setup that the entire league could be happy with, not one that I could exploit most easily.

For the record, by rule, our commissioner is the league champion from the previous season--so that's the other guy who is employing this strategy. He tells me he is going to do his best to quiet this storm, but I just can't see any way to make these guys happy aside from agreeing to a series of gentlemen's agreements--and then I would be the unhappy one.

By the way, thanks for all the feedback, guys. ;-D
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby MTUCache » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:03 pm

Personally, I don't really see how this gives you an advantage really... sure, right now it looks great, as you run away with Saves, but two months from now how are you going to look with Wins and QS?

Other teams are going to be getting 1000+ IP out of their starters, racking up Wins and QS through the season, leaving them with just 200 or less IP for closers, putting them around 50-60 saves, depending on their two closers.

Meanwhile, you'll be getting only 800 IP out of your starters (making it tough to get anywhere near the other teams in W/QS), and probably 400 IP out of your four closers (and any MR), putting you around 100 saves.

I really don't see how this benefits you... you'll keep up in Ks if you have the right closers, and you could scalp enough wins to stay around even (maybe), but you're likely going to be getting hammered in W/QS, and probably middle of the pack in Ks... especially if a couple teams have three premier starters who will rack up all three.

In the end, the IP-max and QS should even out any "punting" involved, and leave you with whoever can keep their ratios the best. You do have an advantage there, essentially removing a fifth starter from the rotation, but it's not too late for any team in the league to do that (and pick up a couple of MRs or closers, which you said were available).

A lot of excitement about something that will even out in the end...
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